Death Ride of the 424 ***SPOILER***

[Sgt. Emren]

Played this scenario twice today, once (first) as ze Germans, next as the Soviets. Man, is there a huge difference in the entertainment value! Playing as the Germans was great fun -- lots and lots of up-close tank duels, lots of action and lots of me screaming at the screen. Then, I decided that I wanted to get even (I lost), I started the same scenario as the Soviets. Man, was that boring! I only lost a single tank, and only killed one tank.

The problem is the AI. It's not able to coordinate multiple vehicle movement very well. In fact, I'd say it's its worse aspect. After 15 turns or so, this is what the entrance to the village looked like:

http://hdc6.hha.dk/~mn1011/screen1.jpg

5 King Tigers in the ol' back-and-forth. :(

This scenario should really come with the warning that it's best suited for single play as the Germans, or PBEM.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

The AI certainly finds a way to bunch up many times, but my experience was exactly the opposite of yours.

I rarely play a scenario twice (there are too many to enjoy!) but after easily winning this as the Germans (2 KT lost, all Soviet's ko'ed), I had a much tougher time as the Soviets. The AI managed to spread itself out nicely and hit me from several directions. It ended up a draw.

Just one of the things, that if you played the same scenario multiple times vs the AI, you would probably see several different types of attack. You just have to hope you get lucky and catch the AI when it has a good idea the first time through.

[mike the wino2]

Funny this topic should pop-up right now. I finished Death Ride as Axis just today. Axis victory, but lost 4 KT. 2 were KO'd by guns near the flag. AI surrendered. Yea, for me. :D

Then tried it as the Ruskies. The AI had no prob coordinating moves. Lost 12 tanks while taking out 8 KT's. German uberkitties never got past the cemetary before time ran out and ended with a draw. :( I still held the flag and hasn't even fired one shot from my ATG's. I think this one would definitely be better PBEM or Hotseat.

[Abbott]

I played this one from the German side and found it to be very enjoyable.

[demoss]

I played it from the German side and thought it blew (though I did get a major victory). It reminded me of Citadel Schwerpunkt from the demo in some ways (which I liked), except without the tactical options for the Germans.

[Andrew H.]

I played this from the German side and thought it was great. It was a real nail-biter. I lost 4 tanks, plus had two immobilized and one with gun damage when I, with only a couple of turns remaining, discovered (more accurately, was discovered by) the AT guns. I was very worried because I knew I wouldn't be able to discover all of them, but I also knew that I was vulnerable to flank shots. Luckily, after I destroyed the AT gun that shot at me, the computer surrendered. :cool: That came as quite a relief.

The fact that my 2 immobilized and one damaged tank weren't actually destroyed meant that I was actually better off in game point purposes than I felt.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by demoss:
...except without the tactical options for the Germans.SPOILER
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The 424. s.Pz.Abt. (really the 501.) were ambushed by the Russians. That is the focus and purpose of the scenario. JSIIs were hidden in the village and a Pak front was set up behind the village. What tactical options do you think the Germans had? Historically, it was the largest number of KTs killed in a single engagement

[Sgt. Emren]

What tactical options do you think the Germans had? Historically, it was the largest number of KTs killed in a single engagement
Yeah, drive off the roads and you have decent chance of bogging down. That really limits mobility around the town.

How many KT's were killed historically?

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Sgt. Emren:
How many KT's were killed historically?24 comes to mind, but I will double check when I get home

Home now... estimated at around 20. By this point the Germans were no longer able to maintain their usual documentation on losses. Almost the full battalion was engaged (less about 10 tanks on another assignment and about 10 others lost due to bogging). So historically, the Germans had around 30 Tigers (the largest concentration of Tigers in the East at that time) and lost around 2/3 of them. The Soviets involved were also mauled

[ November 01, 2002, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Berlichtingen ]

[demoss]

Berli, I'm not saying it's a bad representation of what actually happened (though that's a bit odd itself, given that the scenario is listed as "fictional") - it may well be a perfect representation of an actual ambush. I'm just saying it doesn't make for a good game.

Compare, for instance, to A Deadly Affair. Sure, the Germans know there's an ambush - somewhere (I guessed wrong, myself, and had to recover on the fly), but they have choices about how to deal with it. IMO, the only thing the Germans can do in Death Ride of the 424th is bull through the village and hope to acquire and kill the enemy before they do likewise. There's a LITTLE they can do (mostly set covered arcs), but they HAVE to go through the town, and that's all there is to it. The Germans have so many tanks to push through that they essentially have to take all possible avenues (both of them) because of lack of space. Likewise, the partisans in A Deadly Affair have some interesting choices to make before AND during the game, while a number of people have commented that the Russians in Death Ride just have to set up and hit GO.

All told, I'd much rather play the former. I suspect it's in part because infantry ambushing armor is, to me, intrinsically more interesting than armor and AT guns ambushing armor, but I know that's not all, because I liked Citadel Schwerpunkt too.

[Sgt. Emren]

I am going to try this scenario again tomorrow, as the Germans. I am going to try to destroy EVERY SINGLE HOUSE in that village, so I can then proceed through it with more of a clear view.

When in doubt, shoot first and don't ask any questions!

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by demoss:
Berli, I'm not saying it's a bad representation of what actually happened (though that's a bit odd itself, given that the scenario is listed as "fictional")Semi-historic... as are the vast majority of scenarios on the CD

[demoss]

Semi-historic... as are the vast majority of scenarios on the CD
My mistake. I believed what I saw on the Scenario Depot. I should know better where the CD scenarios are concerned.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by demoss:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Semi-historic... as are the vast majority of scenarios on the CD
My mistake. I believed what I saw on the Scenario Depot. I should know better where the CD scenarios are concerned.</font>[/QUOTE]That's a mistake on my part, and the mechanics for going in and fixing stuff like that are not in place

[LynnL53]

I have played this a bunch of times from both sides -- AI defend is best and that is no surprize-- but here is what I have tried-- first I put tank hunters hidden in the city and it really changed things---I then added an exit zone with a little effect -- next I will try a line of flags to try to lead the AI throuhg on atack just be sure to turn off the flags so it will look better to us. In the real battle -- there was infantry as well as paks and tanks -- also the village was destroyed in the fighting- haveing the infantry in the buildings helps it makes for destruction of buildings and as the armor fights them it changes how they deal with the other armor-- the 424th as has been stated was wiped out in this fight -- Does any one else but memodify and play with the cd battles?

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by LynnL53:
I have played this a bunch of times from both sides -- AI defend is best and that is no surprize-- but here is what I have tried-- first I put tank hunters hidden in the city and it really changed things---I then added an exit zone with a little effect -- next I will try a line of flags to try to lead the AI throuhg on atack just be sure to turn off the flags so it will look better to us. In the real battle -- there was infantry as well as paks and tanks -- also the village was destroyed in the fighting- haveing the infantry in the buildings helps it makes for destruction of buildings and as the armor fights them it changes how they deal with the other armor-- the 424th as has been stated was wiped out in this fight -- Does any one else but memodify and play with the cd battles?Exit zones will not work... it will ensure a German loss. I doubt there is any way to make the AI attack well in this one, but I would be interested in anything you come up with. Also, what source(s) are you using? I based it on a rather short account in a questionable book

[mike the wino2]

Berlichtingen ,
Did you sober up and forget we have a game on? :D I can resend file if you didn't get it.

[LynnL53]

You are right the exit zones did not help much -- I will come back to it later and try again-- I have this battle mentioned in Gotterdamerung as well as Tigers in combat but I will have to look and see which one-- (1 or 2) I also have Tigers on the Eastern Front I will look there -- I made my own version but still had the same problem the AI moves slowly when at all-- sad -I guess I will have to try a human -- smile.gif I have never done any pbem etc but I really like this game and I will likely do so soon. I will look in the next day or so and post what I find here-- it is supposedly historical

[Sgt. Emren]

Well I tried out the "Blast Them All to Hell" approach, and I had moderate success, i.e. a tactical win. But there's not enough time to do it properly.

[Abbott]

LOL! I played it late one night when I first received CMBB. After reading Berli’s briefing, I assumed the Russian forces had NOT made it to the village yet. Giving two platoons fast move orders to try and secure the village before the enemy. The absolute shock I suffered when all hell broke loose I am sure you can imagine. For the next 30 minutes my night no longer felt like it was 3:00 AM and I was sleepy, it became an exciting battle to try and save the remnants of a dying Panzer company!

Death ride is also the only Panzer only scenario I had ever played other then the one on the demo. It remains one of my favorite memories of this great game engine. Thank you Berlichtingen for a very fun battle, as always with the Der Kessel gang, well done!

[ November 05, 2002, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[LynnL53]

I looked up what I could on this battle -yes it happened but no real details mostly the damage the Germans caused but not some much of their losses except they were high-- the town was destroyed in the fighting.

[NewSocialistMan]

I find that the key to winning this as the Russian and winning decisively is to stack your JS2's into places where you have side shot opportunities. The alleys leave you great places to do so. The problems arise when you don't stack them. The rate of fire for the 122mm is about half that of the 88mm, so if you don't empty your threats with your first round of firing, you're screwed.

Also, I find that the 76mm and 57mm AT guns are pretty useless in their starting positions. The KT's never get that far and they engage piecemeal if they do. Better to stack them behind the row of tall pines near the left fork in the road and hide them until the first couple KT's make it past the fork. At pointblank range like that, they open up KT sidearmor like so many canopeners (and the sound of that 57 lighting up a KT side turret is glorious).

I find that the key to making it interesting is to let the first couple get to the center of the city before engaging. Even still, my personal best has been 15 out of the 17 KT's with the other two immobile on the side of the road before the fork.

[mike_in_texas]

Wow! I was happy with a draw against the AI (I was the Germans). I lost all but three KTs by the end of the battle, with my last mobile tank controlling the flag. I managed to speed him past the AT guns, while they were preoccupied perforating my remaining panzers. :(

How did some of you loose only a few KTs? I tried smoke covered arcs, overwatch and overlapping fields of fire, but the Russians still were able to take out the bulk of my forces with just their IS-2s.

Thanks for any helpful tips,
Mike

[Lumbergh]

Originally posted by mike_in_texas:
Wow! I was happy with a draw against the AI (I was the Germans). I lost all but three KTs by the end of the battle, with my last mobile tank controlling the flag. I managed to speed him past the AT guns, while they were preoccupied perforating my remaining panzers. :(

How did some of you loose only a few KTs? I tried smoke covered arcs, overwatch and overlapping fields of fire, but the Russians still were able to take out the bulk of my forces with just their IS-2s.

Thanks for any helpful tips,
MikeI lost 2 KTs against the AI. Since the tanks arrive in groups, I split the initial group between the two roads, and had them hunt slowly up to the bend in the roads (looked like a good place for an ambush).

While those were hunting into the town, I had the second group do a fast move to catch up. With my full contingent in place (took a few turns), I set the tanks with covered arcs on both sides of the road (and some with none), and hunted around the bends in the road. Something that may have helped is that on the right hand side, 2 kts were immobilized in a position that partially blocked the road, holding up traffic. While the rest of that detachment were waiting to move around the immobilized tanks, a bunch of IS-2s left their ambush positions, and were toasted.

The at guns at the end were a surprise that immobilized 2 tanks in their 1st turn of firing...after that I had the tigers do a bunch of area fire around the at guns, since they always come in bunches...seemed to work. I didn't run into the second detachment of at guns since the AI surrendered at that point.

GREAT scenario, btw...really fun!

[ December 12, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Lumbergh ]

[Loaf]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sgt. Emren:
[QB] I am going to try this scenario again tomorrow, as the Germans. I am going to try to destroy EVERY SINGLE HOUSE in that village, so I can then proceed through it with more of a clear view.

Emren, I tried that... Ran out of time without getting into the village! When I looked at the map afterwards there were unspotted Russian tanks between the ruins of buildings - apparently the game considers the ruins to be higher than the profile of the tanks.

[Alkiviadis]

I managed a tactical win (Just barely!) - I gave the AI +1 experience. The time constraint is the key limitation. I killed all but 1 IS-2 for a loss of 2 KTs, by using bounding overwatch by platoon, with judicious use of fast, hunt cmds & cover arcs. I stayed on the roads due to possible bogging. The key was teamwork - my bounding platoons were 2 tanks abreast with 1 or 2 tanks tailgating them, thus at least 2 to 4 bounding KTs were able to shoot on sight in addition to my overwatch units. Given the KT's much higher rate-of-fire my KTs were able to smother the any visable IS-2s with a 88 fire.

[Jeff Devlin]

SPOILER....
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This was a fun battle that I played as the germans against the AI a couple days ago. I won a tactical victory, as I did not have enough time to take the flag. However, I did manage to kill every Soviet Tank and all but two of the anti-tank guns (which were on the ridge)

I lost three King Tigers, all to anti-tank fire. I found for me that I basically split my Tigers immediately into two groups to go and flank the town. I knew that time wasn't on my side. (Or the speed of the Royal Tiger) I then used re-inforcements to storm and hunt variously the town. My flanking group that took the house and dirt road were particullary successful in protecting others and killing IS-2's......alot of fun and very tense.

Jeff

[gwta]

I would like to see some replays of these people that only lost a couple KT.

Especially, how do you over bound 4 tanks on a street that holds 2 or 3 wide?

How do your tanks on over watch see the IS's that are set up on the side of a building pointing at your flank? (The KT comes into its view, how do the other KT's see this IS?)

How do you survive the initial fire from the IS's on your flank?
My experience is that the AI gets hits about 90% of the time with its first shot. (The scenario with the Tigers and Panthers versus the IS2's and T34/85's showed the AI getting first shot hits as the Russians 17 of 19 times, my Tigers and Panthers ran 15 of 28 times (53%).

I also played this scenario and found the same thing.

I see some help in setting arcs (1 left, 1 center and 1 right?).