Stalingrad Pack AAR Thread

[Kingfish]

Time to sound off!

Please us this thread to freely discuss the scenarios in the Stalingrad Pack. We would like to hear your thoughts on the individual scenarios / ops, the Pack in general, and any questions and suggestions you might have. Also, please include any AARs that you would like to share with us. A few might even find their way into the Boots and Tracks website ;)

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The following posts in this thread may contain spoiler info on the Stalingrad Pack.

Do not read beyond this point if you want to preserve FOW!

[jwxspoon]

Feedback.... cool......

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Kingfish:
We would like to hear your thoughts on the individual scenarios / ops, the Pack in general, and any questions and suggestions you might have. Also, please include any AARs that you would like to share with us.Where to begin? Name any SP scenario smaller than Huge and it's a deal.

I played that tiny city scenario which had the reinforcements-magically-appear-midfield problem, which the author soon thereafter claimed to have fixed and reuploaded; other than that one problem, all the scenarios I've played have been notably compelling and of long standing value.

Eden

[ December 03, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Eden Smallwood ]

[Andreas]

Yeah, sorry about the bug with the reinforcements.

'Waltzing Matilda' is a lot smaller than huge.

[demoss]

I'm going to summarize first so that anyone who wants to avoid the spoilers - not that there are many spoilers here, IMO - may have a chance. I'll even summarize the summary: "Go ahead and jump in! The water is GREAT!"

Of the scenarios from the Stalingrad Pack I've tried, they range from good to awesome. I've been particularly impressed by how many of them are NOT in the city - I think only about 40% are in Stalingrad itself, and none of the ones I have tried are (though The Library is probably my next vs-AI game). This means that even if you're not ready for heavy-duty city fighting, there's a lot that may interest you. And if you love scenarios with the minors like I do, you get plenty of that too, since the Rumanians and Italians were heavily involved in the encirclement battles that ultimately doomed the German 6th Army.

Now, on to the MINOR SPOILERS....

I absolutely loved Into the Void. The map was a huge steppe map, but with enough features to be very interesting (farms, hills, a balka, a river). The Germans have about a panzer company and a half (IIs through IV F2s) plus a company of panzergrenadiers, some artillery support, and Stukas, and have to take a number of objectives AND exit most of their force. Along the way, you'll have to do your own recon, identify and neutralize threats, and MOVE to get across the river & off the map. The 40 turns looks long, but not when you see the size of the map you have to cross! I didn't look closely, but I think it's as big as the game allows.

My only complaints were the usual AI-counterattack issue when a flag falls (plus the AI didn't really seem to know what to do with its reinforcements, so left them bunched up as a wonderful Stuka target), and that the auto-surrender, IMO, isn't appropriate in scenarios like this where most of the points come from exiting. I suspect that the AI needs to be programmed specially (perhaps with a new Exit/Delay scenario type) for exit scenarios before it will be able to get them right, but it's close enough in this one. Also, as important as the hill was supposed to be, it probably should have had more & bigger flags - the value of all the flags combined was peanuts compared to the available exit points.

That said, it was still one hell of a great vs-AI scenario, with mucho nailbiting from first contact with the enemy to the very end. If you haven't tried a good armor + armored infantry assault in CMBB, go here first! Sure, you have to be husband them carefully, but once you unleash them it's really quite impressive to see how a single panzergrenadier platoon mounted on halftracks can roll into a farm and clear it like THAT against comparable numbers after it's been softened up just a little. Fear the SPW 251!

I don't know if the Germans would have much chance against a good Russian defender, though. I suspect not. I'm pretty sure I could have come up with a much tougher setup just by putting a few units (I think you'll know which ones after you've played it) in reverse-slope positions.

Overall, this was without a doubt the best CMBB scenario I've played yet. I'm just starting a PBEM of Kalach-na-Donu, which has the potential to be just as good, I think. Kalach-na-Donu is certainly unlike any other scenario I've played - though, given that I have the general idea of what happened historically (Germans, who happened to be training in a rear area with captured T-34s, caught with their pants down by the real thing showing up on their doorstep & failing to identify them as enemy until about the time the shooting started), I didn't expect it to be. So far the scenario is living up to my high expectations.

I also liked Bitter End, but I thought it was a bit too easy in spite of the warning that "this doesn't mean it will be easy" in the briefing - I had the farm completely in hand after three of the four battles, and took out the piddling German reinforcements in battle 4 in about five minutes, most of which was spent finding them. It was sure fun firing off all that artillery, though slowly creeping the infantry forward was rather tedious (fortunately, it amounted to finding the limit of advance and then not returning to those units until I had done something about what was holding them up, so it really wasn't bad once I got out of the habit of using + to scroll through all the units).

I've also got a vs-AI game of Glimmer of Valor going, and though it's good, I don't think it's destined for greatness the way I believe Into the Void is and Kalach-na-Donu may be (though it is an interesting situation in its own right).

I would really like to thank the Boots & Tracks and Der Kessel teams for a truly outstanding effort.

[ December 03, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: demoss ]

[Scott B]

Hey Demoss, thanks for your comments!

"The Bitter End" SPOILER
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Originally posted by demoss:
I also liked Bitter End, but I thought it was a bit too easy in spite of the warning that "this doesn't mean it will be easy" in the briefing - I had the farm completely in hand after three of the four battles, and took out the piddling German reinforcements in battle 4 in about five minutes, most of which was spent finding them. It was sure fun firing off all that artillery, though slowly creeping the infantry forward was rather tedious (fortunately, it amounted to finding the limit of advance and then not returning to those units until I had done something about what was holding them up, so it really wasn't bad once I got out of the habit of using + to scroll through all the units).Yeah, it's actually not that hard once you get the pattern down; that scenario is intended more to generate a particular historical feel than to be extremely challenging. I wimped out and decided that if people played a hundred turn operation of my design, they should more often than not deserve to at least capture the objective. smile.gif

Unfortunately, it appears that operations don't seem to generate point totals when one player wins; the scenario is designed in such a way that the Soviet player should be punished for expending casualties needlessly - it's about a 40% point penalty, if I remember correctly - but with how CMBB operations are designed, a win is a win is a win and if you take the farm and hold it, you apparently get a total victory. I had hoped that the "attacker casualty point factor" setting would help balance this one out, but unless you fail to take the objective by the end of the scenario, it doesn't appear to have any impact - so in the end I can't quite make the operation do what I wanted it to do.

Thanks for trying it out, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I appreciate your feedback!

Scott

[demoss]

Scott - what was your intended allowable casualty level? My casualties were much lower than the Germans' - probably about 1 to 3 by game end. I lost two tanks: one of the initial T-34s and one of the OT-34s (hey, you're just going to lose a flame tank to a lucky grenade hit occasionally).

The majority of the losses probably came in battle 2, where I felt the need to press forward as much as practical (which really wasn't that much) to get good setup areas for battle 3 if I was going to break in at all. After that battle, the Germans had very little fight left in them (due to lack of men AND ammo - and the application of the OT-34s) - I had expected a bit more.

A quirk of the operation is that it may well be a good idea to keep a few units exposed all over the map in battle 1 to get the Germans to expend as much MG ammo as possible at long range (I found that for the most part, those long-range shots didn't do much damage). I haven't tested this theory, nor do I intend to, but it's a thought that occurred to me.

[ December 03, 2002, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: demoss ]

[Moon]

I've played Bitter End as well and tremendously enjoyed it. Great job! Fairly easy (though the first "meeting" with the German defensive line made me doubt if I'd be able to win as I lost both T-34s in the first battle), and in the end the AI surrendered in battle 4 with 15 soldiers left alive on map, but a lot of fun. It did feel very realistic and historical, which is my personal favorite style of battle (and especially operation). Kudos!

"Der Manstein kommt" (great map!) is next - if and when I find some time smile.gif

Martin

[OGF Keller]

Here's my AAR screenshot from The Library --AI -- playing the AXIS against the AI.

http://www.theconnectivitygroup.com/AAR/SP_The_Library_Result.jpg

As you can see, I had a 2 to 1 kill ratio, and a 1.5 to 1 overall casualty ratio, and took some prisoners. And I did manage to "rescue" some of the trapped recon guys.

But not getting the flag meant no victory, even though The Library building changed hands twice.

I probably should have taken some more risks with my spearhead infantry; I think I am just naturally too cautious on the attack.

Anyway, I highly recommend this scenario to cut your teeth on. See my post on City Tactics, which was generic enough not to require a *Spoiler" warning, but very much inspired by the challenges this particular scenario presented.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001359

[ December 03, 2002, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: OGF Keller ]

[WWB]

Demoss: Glad you liked Into the Void. Those AI issues are always tricky, especially given how fickle it is. Play is much more interesting against another human, but the germans need a mistake or two to win in that case. The map is only nearly as big as the engine allows, and I hear you on the flags but I wanted to push the player towards the exit. The flags are there to give the AI a hint or two.

In any case I am glad you enjoyed it.

WWB

[demoss]

Demoss: Glad you liked Into the Void. Those AI issues are always tricky, especially given how fickle it is. Play is much more interesting against another human, but the germans need a mistake or two to win in that case. The map is only nearly as big as the engine allows, and I hear you on the flags but I wanted to push the player towards the exit. The flags are there to give the AI a hint or two. If that's all the flags are for, it might be best to just remove them. As long as you follow the recommendation of using the default setup, the AI doesn't really need hints (except for the reinforcements, where it really doesn't know what to do anyway) - counterattacking here is a BAD idea. Of course, then you probably COULDN'T give the AI freedom to place units, but is that so bad?

As I said, it's a truly outstanding scenario. I loved the tension inherent to having almost all of my units need to exit. It might just be possible to make it work with the AI's quirks a wee bit better, though. I'm not really sure, having not yet designed a scenario myself.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Andreas:
Yeah, sorry about the bug with the reinforcements.Oh stop. The point in context was exactly that this being the biggest complaint proves that we're doing pretty dern well. 'Waltzing Matilda' is a lot smaller than huge.Well that fat lady was pretty Huge for me, in a couple ways. A huge win, a huge aggravation, a huge wonderment at what-the-heck-am-I-doing-out-here with a bazillion AP rounds but almost no HE???, a huge bug in CM, a huge cloaking device on that enemy ATR who I positively could NOT find until the penultimate turn, that turkey!

So. Where to begin, again? The briefing, as I'm sure you know, is utterly complete, telling us not just how to play/setup, but indeed your email whatnot and whatall- thank you. Please apply pressure to some of your competitors. Ironically, though, there is one thing which I wished would have been there, which drove me crazy during the game- Why all that AP and no HE in the fat ladies??? Historical? Sadism?

I soon figured out what a minimal effect those rounds have on infantry. Hee. But that's a large part of what made the battle a sustained fight. The battle- for me, this was one of those rare major victories where I never once had the option of just glancing around, giving a few orders, hitting Go... From early on, I had to precisely micromanage every unit to advance, a situation which didn't change.

Oh btw bonus points also go to anyone finding a historical battle where we get to use some of these less common units and things. I know that they might have been rare here, or nonexistent there, but it would be nice to have them used *sometimes* in a scenario where it fits. Like how many scenarios are there with Italians? Not many I think. Anyhow.

Back to the battle: Did I say "Major" victory? I was *robbed* I tell you, Robbed!! No really- I was, but that was due to the bug; that comes later. The question the author probably wants to know for SP is, "can the AI put up a good fight?" and although I won I was kept very constricted and constipated in that middle copse; as I said, there never came a time when I could stretch my legs and advance. Notwithstanding the fact that I got useful work out of all my units but the peon-vehicles...

Well I'm sure my writing style is *exactly* the kind of thing desired at the B&T AAR section, but with the bug that comes later I can only put half a heart into this one; so saying, here goes:

Begin: A middle copse, a smooth hill on the left, a bunch of weird tanks and a few peashooterwagen. OK. The guns will go up the left hill, to overlook the universe, using Eden's SOP #14- when the truck towing you gets knocked out, set up your gun. Might sound amateur, but it worked great. All of those guns would provide useful fire for the entire game, right down to their last few AP rounds... It cost a couple trucks, but I had insurance. In fact, that's about all I would lose- five little vehicles, and one Matilda *bogged* (sigh). "Major" indeed.

So. The PSW (peashooterwagen) and inf will go sniffing around that middle copse, and hopefully my tanks will be soon behind, hiding back there till the next recon by infantry advance. OK.

But one little wagen is getting holes in his paint job- where is *that* coming from? Lay down area fire all over yin yang, move PSW a bit... Hmmm, can't really tell if I suppresed it or what. Well, ok- it's not perfectly safe back here, right behind the forest, although it *should* be, but most of it seems ok. Pretty soon a nice little party is happening in back of that copse, more towards the left side than the right, since the right side is strangely dangerous, and infantry are ready to walk and find out more.

One little wagen peeking around the left side of the copse valiantly discovers an ATG in town- Great going guys! And pretty soon the infantry have valiantly discovered enough enemy that they can't go anywhere further.

So I start creeping tanks around the safer left side, bit by bit I'm finding people to shoot at, but the AP ammo doesn't do a heck of alot and it takes awhile.

That ATG in town needs to be purified before much more tank motion; one of my big guns on the hill will inch forward until he has sight within a few meters of that foxhole... Get it? He lays down HE within a few meters; enemy can't take it any longer, move someone else in sight... I almost felt sorry, almost. Not sure if that was gamey, though.

Geez- it's been *awhile*, and I *still* haven't found that ATR who's cramping my right side... In fact I would never get over to that right side of the map- there could have been an entire battalion over there.

One Matilda I would move *through* the scattered trees towards town- he's not getting poked full o' holes, while covered in brush, and I really need some kind of firepower facing the right side of town. No, this isn't the one that got bogged.

He made it to the town side of the forest, only to rediscover the joy of taking ATR shots in the nose without being able to figure out where they're coming from. He would finish the game there, and though I found the ATR on the penultimate turn, I couldn't do anything about it due to the bug. The rest of the force spent the remainder making slow steady advance, finally jumping a littlewagen across the road and chewing on enemy from two sides.

So. The bug I mentioned in t'other forum, but there was no interest from BFC, no interest from anyone, actually, but I would feel goofy to not reiterate it while discussing this scenario where it occurred.

Somewhere during the fourth quarter that BA-64 I mentioned who took a chance crossing the road just wouldn't fire at anyone, although he had "15" ammo and was in great shape otherwise. Hmm, I thought- that's weird, so I watched and commanded him for a few turns... He *still* wouldn't fire, not at anyone for any reason.

Then I started looking around and I found that my Matildas had quit firing their AP; MG, ok, but AP, no way, not for any reason not even when in imminent peril. That one in the forest I mentioned still had 77 rounds, so while the force as a whole was pretty low, still...

If a Matilda had both MG and AP, it would ask me "Use Main Gun?" to which I'd say "Yes, you idiot", but when the time came it would only MG. Hmmm.

Well unless someone has a *really* interesting explanation on that one I say it's a bug, like with a capital BUG. But I never saw it before, haven't seen it again.

Shew! In other words, good scenario. smile.gif

Eden

[mPisi]

I've finished 1 scenario PBEM and have another 2 on the go. So far I'm very happy with the scens.

Glimmer of Valor: Won a 93-7 major as the Soviets, knocking out 21 vehicles for no loss. It sounds even at the start but the Romanians were bouncing shots off my front plates while I was knocking them out left and right. The infantry fight was pretty even at the start but once the tank advantage was mine they lost heart and I could advance to get the SMGs into action. The T-3s and T-4s worried me a little but were picked off by coordinated action around the buildings by the T34s. I think I got pretty lucky on this one, but the Axis may need a little boost if you want it to be balanced.

The Library (Axis)- interesting concept, I keep having to tell myself to push harder than I'd like, to try and rescue my guys. The Library is holding out better than I thought. The Sov sharpshooters are hell on my TCs. Hope to pull a victory out of this one.

What Might Have Been (Axis)- wow, what atmosphere! I love the look of the map in the fog. Don't love the first-round kills the Sovs are getting on my fast moving tanks. It's going to be a tough one.

[Eden Smallwood]

This should be the longest most active thread around; can someone tell me why it's not as long as the XBOX thread?

Did my 'Real Man's AAR' of Matilda shame all of you, (except mPisi) so much that you can't even post? Hmmm yeah, that's probably it. smile.gif

C'mon you guys- all that asking 'where is the StalinPack?™' and now hardly anybody wants to rant about the scenarios?

Eden

[Sigurd]

---spoiler Hollow Legion----

I'm only at the turn 10 (out of 35), playing those poor italians. I could see the horror in the face of them, seeing hordes of soviet getting closer, closer... and finally overrunning the positions, one after the other.
The AI bunched up his inf battalion in a 50 m broad corridor, making the run "en masse" towards my positions. Tis time this usual AI tactic was adequate. The italian troop killed 3 times their own number before being slaughtered, but the soviets just keep coming...

Such ass-kicking let these questions arise :

1°) I wondered if playing the allied side, as proposed by the author, could be of any fun with such umerical superiority, and no wild card at all in hands of axis side (see 4th point). Perhaps it was historically the way it is, a esay walk for the soviet, but why advise the solo play as allied ?

2°) Is such a slaughter due to the italian default setup ?
Due to short LOS (200m), the russian battalion-sized inf attacking force overwhelms each italian defense line (each roughly platoon sized) one at a time. The more deeper italian lines just don't see the fiht in the lines in front of them, and are of no use.

3°) I was disappointed that the italian guns couldn't fire on the TRP without LOS on it

4°) If there is no magical reinforcement, I'll be completely trashed, unless I change the default setup (see 2), i hate this tongue.gif

Edited :
Now I'm on turn 30, and I can answer myself somme of these questions :
2°) I held 20 turns on the MLR, but now i ran out of amno, i'm overrun, yes. 4:1 kill ratio, not too bad...
To achieve this i gathered my 3 platoons in the center.
4°) a platoon, bu no real AT asset

In fact the italian default setup would be adapted for clear weather, but with that short LOS, each line of defense cannot support each other

[ December 08, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Sigurd ]

[demoss]

>Why all that AP and no HE in the fat ladies???

I remember reading somewhere that although an HE round was ultimately developed for the 2 pounder, it wasn't widely deployed (perhaps not deployed at all in combat? I don't know). I'm guessing the Brits didn't bother to pack any for the care package to Uncle Joe, if they even had them at the time of shipment.

[Lumbergh]

I really enjoyed "A Morning Commute" for play against the AI as the Soviets.

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It was a fun little scenario. It was not too horrible difficult against the AI, although it was a little tricky to get those guns in a position to do anything.

The best moment was towards the end. I had a couple of squads on the left side of the victory-flagged factory, and a couple more were working through the the rubble to the right of the factory tiles. Lo and behold, a pioneer flamethrower pops up and targets my squad. I am preparing myself mentally for screaming Russians and a broken squad when chumpy the flamethrower misses my squad by roughly 20 meters and manages to put not one but two squirts through the window of the factory and directly on top of a HMG 42, a german squad and an HQ. Needless to say, it was quite a lucky break!

[Eden Smallwood]

•••• A Morning Commute ••••
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Originally posted by Lumbergh:
chumpy the flamethrower misses my squad by roughly 20 meters and manages to put not one but two squirts through the window of the factory and directly on top of a HMG 42, a german squad and an HQ. Needless to say, it was quite a lucky break!Luckier than you would think! I also encountered Chumpy, but my luck was not so in tune.

Coming up the left side, same as you, ( My Co HQ took out a gun all by himself! ), it eventually happened that all my squads from the left and from the front pretty much *flooded* into that factory at the same time- it was a *BIG* party.

Next turn, Chumpy, who was hiding the rubble next door picked the right moment to play Burnin' Down the House. Ruined the Cheese Dip, I can tell you.

Eden

[ December 10, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Eden Smallwood ]

[Sigurd]

****** Der Manstein kommt ******

What weather should be used for the first battle ? From a historicaly point of view ? and for gameplay ?

I sometimes get blizzard, sometimes overcast weather. The battle plays very differently following this seting : the very short LOS of blizzard (100m) allows you to bring all your forces to the river, witout a shot. While overcast has 800+m LOS, so you've got to deal with all the russian nasty stuff

Any thought ?

[Simon Fox]

Originally posted by demoss:
>Why all that AP and no HE in the fat ladies???

I remember reading somewhere that although an HE round was ultimately developed for the 2 pounder, it wasn't widely deployed (perhaps not deployed at all in combat? I don't know). I'm guessing the Brits didn't bother to pack any for the care package to Uncle Joe, if they even had them at the time of shipment.Actually, the British shipped large quantities of 2-pr HE to the Soviets. For example for the period 7/43-6/44 55,070 such rounds were shipped. The only question that arises is the time at which such rounds became available.

[Franko]

Originally posted by Sigurd:
---spoiler Hollow Legion----

I'm only at the turn 10 (out of 35), playing those poor italians. I could see the horror in the face of them, seeing hordes of soviet getting closer, closer... and finally overrunning the positions, one after the other.
The AI bunched up his inf battalion in a 50 m broad corridor, making the run "en masse" towards my positions. Tis time this usual AI tactic was adequate. The italian troop killed 3 times their own number before being slaughtered, but the soviets just keep coming...

Such ass-kicking let these questions arise :

1°) I wondered if playing the allied side, as proposed by the author, could be of any fun with such umerical superiority, and no wild card at all in hands of axis side (see 4th point). Perhaps it was historically the way it is, a esay walk for the soviet, but why advise the solo play as allied ?

2°) Is such a slaughter due to the italian default setup ?
Due to short LOS (200m), the russian battalion-sized inf attacking force overwhelms each italian defense line (each roughly platoon sized) one at a time. The more deeper italian lines just don't see the fiht in the lines in front of them, and are of no use.

3°) I was disappointed that the italian guns couldn't fire on the TRP without LOS on it

4°) If there is no magical reinforcement, I'll be completely trashed, unless I change the default setup (see 2), i hate this tongue.gif

Edited :
Now I'm on turn 30, and I can answer myself somme of these questions :
2°) I held 20 turns on the MLR, but now i ran out of amno, i'm overrun, yes. 4:1 kill ratio, not too bad...
To achieve this i gathered my 3 platoons in the center.
4°) a platoon, bu no real AT asset

In fact the italian default setup would be adapted for clear weather, but with that short LOS, each line of defense cannot support each otherFor precisely the reasons you set forth, this one is MEANT to be played AGAINST the Italians. You precisely did the opposite of what was recommended. And now, you criticise it. Nice.

[Franko]

Originally posted by Sigurd:
****** Der Manstein kommt ******

What weather should be used for the first battle ? From a historicaly point of view ? and for gameplay ?

I sometimes get blizzard, sometimes overcast weather. The battle plays very differently following this seting : the very short LOS of blizzard (100m) allows you to bring all your forces to the river, witout a shot. While overcast has 800+m LOS, so you've got to deal with all the russian nasty stuff

Any thought ?Historically, it should start out cold, clear, and overcast. There's no control over this, however, unless you restart the game until you get that result.

F

[Phil_K]

Eye of the Storm
****** SPOILERS (dah !)***********

I just finish playing this scenario as the germans against an other player. The map and the matchup of units (pioneers with howitzers and AT guns defending a village from an armored assault) are great but it is really not balanced. The german player has no chance against a decent opponent simply because the soviet player has enough firepower (in the form of 15 T-34s) to level the village three times while the germans have very limited long range AT capabilities. I guess this is all to show how hopeless the german situation was at that time (it sure did show me...) but it can be a frustrating game.

I know the briefing stated that this scenario might not be balanced for your "playing style" (I guess I was warn...) but it also suggess playing as the soviets against the AI. Even with the poor skill of the AI on the attack, I think it would be much more of a challenge to play the german against the AI.

For me, this scenario was mostly a great learning experience on the good placement of HMG, guns and other infantry units on defense but not a battle I could win. This is not necessarily bad but it should be made more obvious.

[Kingfish]

Bump-o-rama!

And a friendly reminder that several of the SP scenarios are now listed at the depot.

[mPisi]

The Library - strangely moving, my advance just getting into sight of the Library building as the defenders are overrun :(

That damn %%$# in the building also got me, I thought it would be a perfect position for one, but decided to move into view anyways, because I didn't know if the designers would go to those efforts or not. Good job to you guys, bad deal for me. Hope nobody remembered you can do the same with antipersonnel mines.

[Berkut]

-----------Possible spoilers-----------------
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I have not had time to play through all the scenarios in the Stalingrad pack and have just started with the first.

Into the void features an attempt to secure vital highground and an equally vital crossing over a river. A vast portion of the terrain is very open and any attempt to cross it will be observed from the hilltop.

Also of concern is a village near a dry riverbed.

Your initial force consists of a recce unit of 6 PZII's and a recce platoon. for artillery you have a 81mm FOO. Stukas are roaming around to take out any targets of opportunity.

Now I have played...or should I say started to play this on 6 occasions now. Each time I played saw 50-70% of the recce force being knocked out by two 47mm AT guns within 5 turns. Which I'm sure many would agree is some very accurate shooting at ranges in excess of 700 mtrs.

I am playing with the scenario defaults and full fog of war.

Has anyone here found similar problems with these scenarios or been able to beat the AT guns without significant losses to their force?

How does it handle when played as a pbem?

[demoss]

Berkut,

I've posted a moderately detailed AAR here (http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002289) .

Summary - total victory vs. AI. Do initial recon CAREFULLY. Move. Move. ASSAULT. Move. Move. Rinse. Repeat.

And don't worry about losing the Pz IIs. Don't throw them away, but don't shed a tear. A couple of mine actually survived - probably sheer luck.

[ December 23, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: demoss ]

[demoss]

The Library - AI surrendered, I believe for a Major Victory (don't remember exactly). Yes, that #@($*&!!! got one tank, and I lost a couple halftracks, but the Library was never seriously threatened (I really moved in the early going). I cleared the last set of daisy chains, which apparently convinced the big bad guy to come out and play with demo-totin' pioneers. Bad move. Also, a Pz IV F tried to RAM said big bad guy. REALLY bad move. Fortunately, we distracted him long enough for my untertank to make his escape.

For an amusing set of screenshots, look here (http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004483) .

[ichadwick]

Just a link to a 1941 map of Stalingrad (http://www.indiana.edu/~libgpd/mforms/CMT/stl.html) that you might find interesting.
Ian

[Berkut]

Originally posted by demoss:
Berkut,

I've posted a moderately detailed AAR here (http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002289) .

Summary - total victory vs. AI. Do initial recon CAREFULLY. Move. Move. ASSAULT. Move. Move. Rinse. Repeat.

And don't worry about losing the Pz IIs. Don't throw them away, but don't shed a tear. A couple of mine actually survived - probably sheer luck.More spoilers perhaps?---------------

I should not really have started this post so close to xmas. Just not possible for me to check in on the threads.

I have replayed it since and stopped around turn 18. I have noticed a couple of things that concerned me. This is not directed at the scenario itself but the way certain things are modelled in CMBB.

I was able to deal with the two 47mm AT guns and was in the process of dealing with farm 44 when my recce sqds spotted two more AT guns lurking in the woods near the collective.

I was also in the process of dealing with hill by moving a force of panzer III's and IV's with the long barreled IV's in overwatch positions when my half tracks came under very accurate fire from the treeline again. Despite 105 arty being laid down and the tank guns blazing my units could detect the sounds being made by three units (anti-tank rifles) from ranges of around 600-700 metres as they left the cover of the ridgeline.

They could not see them, but could hear them? at that range?...do these russians go everywhere accompanied by martial music? ;)

The other problem was the fire from the rifles was extremely accurate considering the range and they were successful in knocking out 5 halftracks in two turns. So there was no possibilty to rush the flag in the farm, because there is another one of these little sods lurking in along side the two AT guns.

How accurate was this weapon? I don't think it had any advanced optics and at the ranges it must have been fired at; operating at the limits of it's effectiveness.

Has anyone else playing this scenario observed these situations?

[ December 28, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Berkut ]

[Berkut]

Originally posted by demoss:
Berkut,

I've posted a moderately detailed AAR here (http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002289) .

Summary - total victory vs. AI. Do initial recon CAREFULLY. Move. Move. ASSAULT. Move. Move. Rinse. Repeat.

And don't worry about losing the Pz IIs. Don't throw them away, but don't shed a tear. A couple of mine actually survived - probably sheer luck.Well I restarted the game and went through 47 turns with only a minor victory to show for it :rolleyes:

I did read your AAR, demoss. I would say a broadbrush approach than moderately detailed ;)
I could replay it and replay it till I knew were everything is and get to the crossing faster but that sort of thing never appeals to me.

There are a lot of unpleasant surprises in this battle and when you consider the need to save a lot of your force for the exit, it can slow you down considerably.

Warning spoilers, detailed AAR now follows-----------------
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1. expect to lose all but a couple of your pzII's you'll need these to smoke out the 45mm guns hidden in the tree line at the base of hill 171.
You could wait until your heavier tanks arrive but considering their value in this game you may not want to risk them.
I used the 81mm FOO to knock each gun out before sending him with the rest of the recce force to scout out farm 44.

2. You must eliminate the threat posed to your flanks by farm 44 before advancing to the hill.
It has two 45 AT guns and a platoon of russian riflemen for support. You could eliminate the guns and bypass the farm considering how worthless the flags are for the germans.

3. Russian anti-tank riflemen are setup in the treeline of hill 174 and one more in farm collective 44. These can and will knock out halftracks at considerable ranges and you simply cannot afford to lose to many of these. So you will have to clean these buggers out. They are as elusive as snipers so put smoke down and send some troops up in haltracks quickly and hunt them down. You could use arty, but I found that it was not effective as they were well spaced out & well back from the treeline with a clear LOS of the steppe. So use smoke and race a platoon of PzGrenadiers up there quickly.

4. The hill can simply be overrun with the firepower you have. The russian will fold quickly. but do not be too hasty in going over that hill.

5. Across the Olnye there are two 76.2mm guns they are very accurate so be careful. I sought hulldown positions with PZIV's and used their HE to knock them out, but this exposed me to...

6. Armour...yes there is some and yes they capable of chewing you up if you are careless. I was able to deal with them but lost 4 very valuable tanks in the process.

7. The river crossing itself is clear of anything that can harm your tanks. but there are two 25mm cannon in the woods nearby and they will make mincemeat of your halftracks. If you are lucky you will have time to spot them and knock them out. I lost two before putting down smoke...more time & points lost. Also pray you don't have any vehicles bog down in the crossing....if that happened there it would really make things frustrating.

In the end I simply ran out of time and could not get everything off the map. Losing vehicles that need to exit is also badnews considering how much needed to be got off. The effect of the stukas on the enemy was negligible, there were also incidents were they strafed my forces, I'm just lucky they had used their bombs.

It is winnable...perhaps not the first time you play it, as stated earlier there are nasty surprises for the axis player.

[demoss]

A couple points here. I did apply some artillery fire against the antitank assets (and the infantry at the farm, which I didn't know about at the time) early on. It's not foolproof, certainly, but it helps. The AT guns themselves, though, CAN be taken out relatively safely by your tanks. The Pz III & IV can duel the guns from the ridge and win (even the Pz IIs can get lucky - I had one take out two of the 45 mm ATs). This is also a good use for the SPW 251/2s, using infantry HQs as spotters.

You mentioned losing 5 halftracks to AT rifles in two turns; I never saw anything like that happen. Were the halftracks stopped? They should NEVER be stopped under AT rifle fire - I used fast move exclusively. If you find that the AT rifles can see you where you thought they couldn't, well, that can be a problem.

I meant moderately detailed in light of the fact that I was trying to avoid spoilers. I couldn't have said much more without giving things away.

[Berkut]

Originally posted by demoss:

You mentioned losing 5 halftracks to AT rifles in two turns; I never saw anything like that happen. Were the halftracks stopped? They should NEVER be stopped under AT rifle fire - I used fast move exclusively. If you find that the AT rifles can see you where you thought they couldn't, well, that can be a problem.
This occured in the game I played up till turn 18 (see earlier post concerning at rifles)2 were hit on the move, one was hit while in the cover of the dry-river bed. the others were hit when I thought they were in cover in some trees. I checked LOS and was seeing ranges of 700+ metres. The last time I played a surviving PzII was hit after cleaning out farm 44 by a rifle from the treeline of hill 174. I would guesstimate that range nearer 800+ metres. It got a partial penetration :eek: and panicked the crew.

I had to hunt down all three of the little bastards using the technique described in my AAR...wonder why they phased a weapon like that out if it could do that kind of damage at those ranges...did they have tungsten shortages as well? or is this weapon a little too accurate?

I have since moved on to when worlds collide. Have you noticed that tanks with tungsten ap rounds seem reluctant to use them?

I remember a similar problem in CMBO

[ December 30, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Berkut ]

[demoss]

I have since moved on to when worlds collide. Have you noticed that tanks with tungsten ap rounds seem reluctant to use them? It seems to be dependent on a few things. I've seen tanks hoard them like gold, but I've also seen vehicles fire them first thing - not even an AP ranging shot. The latter seems to happen primarily when standard AP isn't even going to dent the target (PzJg I vs. KV). I suspect experience also matters.

As for the AT rifles, well, they were phased out because halftracks weren't what really terrified people. Sure, AT rifles can kill halftracks. What can't? I think you got unlucky to lose as many as you did that quickly, but three of those five were due to an erroneous perception of safety.

[Andreas]

BUMP

I entered 'A morning commute' and 'Waltzing Matilda' at the Depot, in case someone feels inclined to review them.

[Andreas]

Just finished 'One final stab'. very highly recommended city battle. Got a minor victory as Soviets, my opponent thought he had won, and so did I.

Nice one, don't waste it on the AI.