Villers-Bocage - Tiger! now for CMBB

[Sergei]

"Villers-Bocage - Tiger!" was and still is a CM Beyond Overlord classic by Wild Bill Wilder, which many play time after time, to have some fun or to see if they can do better this time.

With this in mind I thought this great scenario should be converted into CM Barbarossa to Berlin, because of the new features giving the player a greater control over what and where should the Tiger target (cover arcs and armour cover arcs). After thinking about it for a moment, I figured I could take screenshots of the map in the map editor, combine them into one bitmap, then use this as an underlay in MappingMission (a very handy tool made by Leland J. Tankersley), in which I could replicate every single tile and elevation, then exporting it all into CMBB map editor. It worked. Then I copied the OOB. Figuring Soviet equivalents for British AFV's was easy because of all the Lend-Lease equipment.

Now it is available at a Scenario Depot (http://ns9.super-hosts.com/~dragonlair.net/combatmission/) near you: Villers-Bocage - Tiger! for CMBB. Can you beat your CMBO score?..

[Ralph Beaman]

Where can i get the most accurate and bug free scenarios for CMBO and CMBB? At the Scenario Depot? Will they have all the scenarios from the new cd comming out at the end of the the month?

[CombinedArms]

The Scenario Depot has most of the scenarios ever issued for CMBO and CMBB. It's up to the designer to place the scenario there (and Admiral Keth, who runs it, doesn't use scenarios w/o permission.) So there are bound to be a few omissions, but it's almost all there. Plus, they're enhanced by reviews, ratings, and author comments about historical background and best mode of play.

My guess would be that virtually anything on the new CD will already be at the Depot. The Depot is on friendly terms with all the major designers and in many cases is the primary host for their work. And, if not the primary host, it will refer you to the designer's personal website. So, it's the first place to go for CM scenarios.

BTW, the new version of Villier-Bocage--Tiger! is fun! I've downloaded it and played it vs. the AI.

[ May 18, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[GreenAsJade]

I never tried CMBO "Tiger!" till now.

What a fun scenario - great idea.

And when you fire up the CMBB version, it feels
so "right" - a great appearing conversion.

However, it doesn't play the same _at all_.

It's fascinating how different it is.

*** SPOILERS ***

The CMBO version AXIS vs AI is _hard_. It's a real challenge to reproduce the briefing. As soon as the Tiger appears, Sherms and Croms crush back into town and wait.

By contrast, in the CMBB version, as long as the Tiger stays to the "right", the Allied tanks pour out of town, getting popped off in the process and hardly scratching the Tiger. You can head for the flag, then whip round to the left round the block and pick off tanks at leisure till the reinforcements show up.

If you do the same in CBMO you find a horde of Croms and Sherms who rush you and quickly kill you.

I have to say that, at least against the AI, somehow the CMBO challenge has not been reproduced.

[GreenAsJade]

In re-reading my message, I realise I didn't emphasise enough the great job that has been done in converting the "look and feel" of the scenario. I was astonished how similar the initial appearance is - fantastic job.

I'm not sure what needs to be done to fix the gameplay - whether a different initial placement or beefed up OOB would make the difference....

[Sergei]

Yeah, I have noticed the easiness. The main reason for the conversion was to offer a point of comparison between BO and BB. And indeed, it plays substantially differently.

The computer player doesn't seem as scared of the Tiger as it used to - Stuarts step cheerily forward while in CMBO they stayed among the buildings and smoke. The main cause of Wittmann dying in CMBO, turret facing the wrong way, is easily fixed with cover arcs. Lessens the chance of weak spot penetrations and gun damage considerably, because the 88mm is already facing at their direction. That also shortens the life spans of Allied tanks. You can try without using arcs to see the difference.

If you want to add more challenge, I may suggest going to the editor, unit editor, view the Axis Reinforcement 1 and delete some of the Tigers. Then save it under a different name. You can even take off all the reinforcements (well, maybe keep the infantry) and see how well Wittmann handles it solo.

[GreenAsJade]

Makes you wonder about the CMBB tank drivers, doesn't it.

My pure speculation is that in CMBB the AI has been given an increased sense of urgency to go and win flags (to make it a better attacker).

Since there is Axis flag sitting there out of town, I wonder if they all feel compelled to head towards it if possible, overriding their scardiness about the Tiger out there?

Also, my impression is that Valentines just aren't as good as Croms, although this may be unfair since the Croms (sitting in town) end up shooting at Wittman from very close range, wheras the Vals (all running out of town) remain at longer range...

This impression is not from looking at the numbers, just seeing how many Vals die vs how often Croms puncture Wittman!

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Sergei:

If you want to add more challenge, I may suggest going to the editor, unit editor, view the Axis Reinforcement 1 and delete some of the Tigers. Then save it under a different name. You can even take off all the reinforcements (well, maybe keep the infantry) and see how well Wittmann handles it solo. Hmmm - I'm more intersted in why the first 10 minutes are so different.

I was wondering if you should try it without the initial Axis flag, with a small initial Axis flag, or with nastier tanks.

The latter is not a very satisfying suggestion, because the real question is "why do the tanks in CMBB all pour out of town and get killed?"

Is anyone from Battlefront likely to offer some insight?

[ May 20, 2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: GreenAsJade ]

[MAUS_TD]

Hi,
i played this scenario too. I dont have cmbo but in cmbb i played german vs ia +2 and still its a turkey shoot. If you let your tiger go to the road
next to the flag and wait there you shoot them all away.By the time my reinforsments came i was still at the begin.The rest of the tigers came at the same point as where wittmann was so now 4 tiger tanks where shooting. When i went forward to the town the ai surrenderd So i never got the second flag lost only my panzer 4 and killed 35 enemy tanks
too easy its a shame looks cool with a elite tankdriver

[Sergei]

I might see about making a CMBB-balanced version. Mainly the AI behaviour. Actually I wonder, is there any thread or article where the AI would be discussed.

[Michael Dorosh]

Well, I just played and reviewed the current version at the Depot. It was fun, in an eating potato chips kind of way. The legend of the Tiger has vividly returned to the CM world; I simple drove Fast into the town and shot everything that moved. Wittmann and crew emerged without a scratch. I'm glad the trouble was taken to convert this one just for that reason alone.

I thought this was going to be the other Tiger against the odds CMBO scenario, though - where you start out on a road in the middle of a village and the Brits are at either end? Which one was that again? I'll bet that plays substantially different as well.

[Sergei]

Michael, maybe I'm wrong but you might be talking about the Villers-Bocage operation. Except that in that there is not one but a bunch of Tigers outside of the town, Brits to both directions. Villers-Bocage was the operation which caused a lot of gray hair to people, because Tigers tended to turn back and forth, only to be facing the bush when some Firefly shows up and spoils the party.

[Snorri]

hm, i though it would be called "danube blues" in cmbb smile.gif

great, to have it (the operation!!) for cmbb, thx

[PeterX]

Can the CM engine really due justice to the Villers-Bocage battle? Wittman caught the Desert Rats, who should be rated as veterans, not conscripts, outside their tanks taking tea. A lot of the ensuing carnage was due to the mad scramble to re-man their vehicles. This cannot be depicted in either version of CM.

[Bry Barnard]

Michael - you may have been thinking of the Villers scenario I put up at The Scenario Depot called 'Villers Bocage - Panzers In Normandy'.

I took the maps and account given in 'Panzers in Normandy - Then and Now' and recreated as closely as I could. The map is a bit more to scale (IMHO) to Wild Bill's version, but still is good fun.

I've been wondering about re-doing the scenario in CMBB since I got CMBB. Now Sergei's done the CMBB conversion of Wild Bill's I'll have to give it a go.

Give it a week or so and I'll see what I can do. :D

Cheers,

Bry

[Gpig]

Someone REALLY should re-do that OPERATION. The one where Whittman and his buddies roll through the village and coutryside, while brits scurry everywhere.

Happens over three battles, I think.

Please? Someone?

smile.gif

I'll promise to play it AND review it. smile.gif

Gpig

[gibsonm]

Hi,

Just a quick question. What does the SU-122 represent in the UK OoB?

[offtaskagain]

95mm CS tanks maybe?

[Sergei]

Yes, that's right. I couldn't think of anything else with a HEAT round capable of hurting a Tiger in the Soviet stock.

[tooz]

Just played it--cool! :cool: I loved getting the opportunity to use all of my lend-lease mods. After bagging 4 T-34s, one Sherman, three halftracks and stuarts, one T-34 got lucky with that dreaded "Gun damaged" result. However, by then the reinforcements arrived and kicked butt. Maybe a bit easy but a good game to play while having a few beers. Perhaps substitute a few Churchills for some T-34s if it is TOO easy? Churchills last longer. Ahistorical? OF COURSE IT IS AHISTORICAL!!! WHO CARES? As is, it's a blast.
Now, about that operation...
Good concept, cool game. Can you do the same for the op?

[LynnL53]

This is not a really AAr but just some comments on the battle-- I have played it 4 times and have kept one of the endings because the map looked so cool -- I think you did a good job in bring this over into CMBB thanks