German cultural question on French migrants

[Hans]

In the 17th and 18th centuries a number of French people migrated to Germany. Did the Germans have a name or designation for these "Germanized" French?

I'm asking this as a source for a scenario* speaks of a German officer with a French background who mentions "our identity as less than fully German".

*Small Battles, Deception, 1940

[dieseltaylor]

Alsations? smile.gif


from Wikipedia

"Language

The local German dialects are Alsatian and Frankish. Both are referred to as alsacien in French, and neither have any form of official recognition.

When Alsace was under German control from 500 to 1648, from 1871 to 1919 and from 1940 to 1944, use of the German language was mandatory. However, parts of the région spoke French exclusively."

Apparently with each change of control certain amounts of the population left for their former overlords. In 1870 it was put at 50,000.

[Hans]

Not just the Alsatians but the Huguenots, escapees from the terror, etc

[Joachim]

@Hans:
It is most likely just "Hugenotten". I don't know of anything else. "To stem from an old Huguenots family". Lots of them, especially around Berlin.


@DT:
Mandatory use of German language in the Alsace?

a) Before Luther translated the bible there wasn't even a "standard" German. Only accents. So I doubt "German" was mandatory in the Alsace before 1550.

b) German control from 500 AD on is a bit confusing.... In 800 AD Charlemagne (for the French) or "Karl der Große" (for the Germans) was "Kaiser" (aka Ceasar) of the "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation" - the formal successor of the ancient Roman Empire. Yet the French still claim him as one of theirs. He ruled the Germanic tribe of the Franks, and "Frankreich" (=German for France) is an abbreviation of "Frankenreich" (="Empire of the Franks") in German. As Charlemagne was French for the French, the French will claim the Alsace was French in and after 800.

The "1st empire" slowly faded away after 1200AD. The Alsace was not under control of the French King then and it was considered part of Germany. But then... what actually is "Germany"? In 1871 the "Kleindeutsche Lösung" (the "small Germany" solution - leaving Austria and its possesions out of Germany) was chosen by Bismarck. Before Germany was more an idea than a reality. I like the slogan "Germany in the borders of 1154 - Sicily is ours!". Best describes the problem.

A weak Germany - or the many weak German states and fiefdoms (more than 100) that existed was easy prey for France. France expanded and the French kings favored "natural borders". One of those was the Rhine. There were several attempts to get there. During the 30 years war, Germany was devastated and found itself a bit smaller afterwards (1648). Read: The Alsace became French.

Following that were several attempts to seize the Palatinate (which is North of the Alsace and between France and the Rhine) to seize a bigger part of the Rhine, but most failed - or had only limited success. Heidelberg castle was scorched in one of those wars.

I was born south of the Queich creek, which was the northern border of France until Waterloo. Then the border shifted a bit south to the next creek and that small territory got German. Thus a part of the Palatinate instead of the Alsace. Part of the Kingdom of Bavaria, to be exact, as Germany did not exist then. And the ancestors of the Bavarian kings were in fact Counts of the Palatinate long before they inherited Bavaria. But this is another story. And it is just as confusing as the history of the Alsace. Probably as confusing as the history of most European borders.


Short:
That problem is to big for just a few lines in an encyclopedia. There were so many shifts of the borders - I doubt the language of the common people changed fast enough to keep up that pace. What did happen was that the "official language" and the administration changed. No ruler (until '41) was dumb enough to enforce a language to the Alsatians. People in that area are rather stubborn (believe me, I'm local smile.gif ).


Gruß
Joachim

[Michael Dorosh]

Don't forget that great Alsatian, Guy Sajer. I am sure his landmark work explains this sitution in full. ;)

[Pyewacket]

Hugenotten was a dirty word at first. They called themselfs 'Religion prétendue réformée' or 'calvinists' (from Johannes Calvin, one of the founders) or simple 'protestants'. Later they called themselves Hugenotten on their own. They were a minority in France (90 % catholic) and had to flee. around 40.000 (of 200.000) I think went to German countries (more or less 20.000 of them to Prussia).

[The Vyrdolak]

Originally posted by Joachim:
And the ancestors of the Bavarian kings were in fact Counts of the Palatinate long before they inherited Bavaria. I thought Maximilian of Bavaria was granted the Electorship of the Palatinate as a reward for staying loyal to the Emperor in the 30YW, when the hereditary Elector Frederick was put under the Imperial ban?

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Zaraath:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joachim:
And the ancestors of the Bavarian kings were in fact Counts of the Palatinate long before they inherited Bavaria. I thought Maximilian of Bavaria was granted the Electorship of the Palatinate as a reward for staying loyal to the Emperor in the 30YW, when the hereditary Elector Frederick was put under the Imperial ban? </font>[/QUOTE]Family affairs of the house of Wittelsbach:
Max was granted the electorate early in the 30YW. But peace conditions allowed both to keep their electorates (and most of their possesions), making for 8 instead of 7 electors. In 1775 or sumfink, the Bavarian dukes aka the "younger" Wittelsbach line had died. So in 1776 the head of the elder line of the Wittelsbach family inherited their titles and possessions. Which happened to be the count of the Palatinate, duke of Zweibrücken-Sulzbach. IIRC the French king was involved as that count was a cornel in his army - but don't nail me on that.

Compared to Heidelberg Munich was boring (catholic, conservative, ...). But Munich had something to offer: It was far away from French borders and when in 1789 the French started to kill the nobility, the capital shifted. In 1806, Napoleon reorganized Germany. The Palatinate to the left of the Rhine became French. The "electoral Palatinate" on the right bank got part of Baden. But guess who got promoted to King of Bavaria... 1815 did not see much changes of borders inside Germany. Those who got something in 1806 usually kept it. But the King of Bavaria got back those parts of the Palatinate held by France.

Gruß
Joachim

[Carl Puppchen]

Only on the combat mission board would someone make a joke about Guy Sajer and the controversy about his wartime memoirs... who of course was supposedly a 16 year old Frenchman conscripted into the German army and fighting in the GD division from 1943-5... and expect people to pick up on it in the context of a thread smile.gif