What to do under arty fire?

[John D Salt]

I have just had a moderately successful game against the AI (British attack vs. Heer, lost 41 cas, a Daimler and a 6-pdr, bagged 71 cas, 11 PWs, a Hetzer, a StuG III, 3 HTs and an assortment of 5 guns including a long 88). The only really unsatisfactory aspect of the fight was the heavy losses my infantry took from 120mm mortar DFs. This prompts the following question --

What is the best thing for attacking infantry to do under indirect fire: Advance out of it, or take cover?

Historical advice on this seems variable. When I was in the TA, our training was largely defensive, but we would I think generally have expected to take cover under artillery fire and sit it out (in a tidy battle we would have been dug-in on a reverse slope). Tom Wintringham's "New Ways of War", published in 1940, advises sitting tight under bombardment in defence to the extent of not even thinking of moving until 50% casualties have been suffered, which seems a bit steely (although in defence, dug-in, I suspect that you're always going to be be worse off if you leave your slit trenches).

On the other hand, and in attackign situations, an official booklet in my possession on infantry platoon and section leading (dated 1950, so presumably based closely on WW2 experience) says that it is often safer to double forward out of HE fire rather than take cover, and an OA document I dug up at the PRO reports experiments indicating that it might be better to spend fifteen seconds or so looking for the best cover before taking it under 25-pdr fire in rough heathland. Finally, there is the unforgettable passage in George MacDonald Fraser's "Quartered Safe Out Here" where the Borders "kept ga'n" under Japanese whizz-bang fire, and "the companies never stopped or even broke stride".

It seems to me that the answer as to whether it's better to hit the deck or double forward will depend on the kind of terrain occupied (including how soggy it is) and the calibre of the incoming fire, and perhaps also the morale class of the people under fire -- green or conscript troops will probably hit the deck anyway.

So -- what do people think?

All the best,

John.

[xerxes]

In CM, if you're taking heavy arty fire bug out. Withdraw if you're not already moving, run (fast) if you are moving. The only exception is if you are in a heavy building.

[mowers]

Agreed, moving fast might be best, I've been taken to the cleaners recently by someone using artillery against me. I tried to hide and lost a platoon. Its difficult to know when to move and I guess thats the skill.

[IronChef4]

I usually get a feel for how accurate the artillery is going to be during the pre-barrage and/or first turn of bombardment. If its innacurate, or ineffective (usually when my men are entrenched) I stick around. But if I begin to take excessive casualties (usually what I consider to be more than 2 men per squad in a particular platoon), I usually get the hell out of there.

[Juju]

Also note that a barrage where the spotter has a LOS always produces an east/west oriented pattern. So, depending on terrain and battle circumstances, moving north or south might get you out of its radius faster.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Juju:
Also note that a barrage where the spotter has a LOS always produces an east/west oriented pattern. So, depending on terrain and battle circumstances, moving north or south might get you out of its radius faster.You gamey bastard! ...taking advantage of the game's rule of firing arty east/west instead of in depth!

All kidding aside, the biggest arty that other human players have thrown at me (vast majority of the time) is Brit 4.2 mortars and 75mm...mostly b/c I usually play Short-75 and ppl have gone for quantity, i.e. the smaller calibers. For the most part, you won't take bad casualties from the lighter stuff if you are in woods/pines or buildings. If you "hide" from it, and have modestly good luck, you'll be OK. So gauging the size of the spotting rounds is obviously important.

The one time I've faced human-fired 105mm,
I got caught in scattered trees, and took a good beating. From what I've seen from the AI, two turns of American 4.2 mortars will decimate a platoon, even in woods. I've faced 155mm when I had Green Heer troops, but they fled on their own fast enough that I didn't take horrific losses.

[ February 21, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Snarker]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:
[QUOTE] For the most part, you won't take bad casualties from the lighter stuff if you are in woods/pines or buildings.

The one time I've faced human-fired 105mm,
I got caught in scattered trees, and took a good beating. From what I've seen from the AI, two turns of American 4.2 mortars will decimate a platoon, even in woods. I've faced 155mm when I had Green Heer troops, but they fled on their own fast enough that I didn't take horrific losses.My real life military friends and relatives have all told me you didn't want to be caught in the woods under a barrage. Tree top bursts were deadly... I think this is modeled in CM.

[PiggDogg]

If one is under spotted arty fire, do the following:

(1) if in woods/tall pines:
(a) if the arty is less than 105 mm, probably sitting it out will be ok, but unpleasant smile.gif ;
(b) if the arty is 105 mm or larger, get out of the way fast or die :( .

(2) if in heavy building (expecially 2 story):
(a) if the arty is less than 105, sitting it out is ok smile.gif ;
(b) if the arty is near 105, OK to sit smile.gif ;
(c) if the arty is near 150/155mm or bigger, split the scene or you will die. Even big building get nuked when hit by two or so 155s :eek: .

If the arty is unspotted & one is not too concentrated, even if the arty is up to 150, probably one can sit it out expecially if in heavy buildings.

If one gets hit by spotted 150 arty or larger, he will see his men die in droves :eek: .

Cheers, Richard :D

[ February 22, 2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[xerxes]

Moving north/south is a good idea. I've heard the sit out the smaller stuff theory, I think it's a mistake if you're in the woods. Also be very careful of the nasty tactic of overlapping two 81mm FOs. Doubled up 81mm in the trees will break you.

[Sargento Garcia]

All this poor trees taking the bursts and sending nasty pieces of broken wood all around... not nice ;)

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by xerxes:
Moving north/south is a good idea. I've heard the sit out the smaller stuff theory, I think it's a mistake if you're in the woods. Also be very careful of the nasty tactic of overlapping two 81mm FOs. Doubled up 81mm in the trees will break you.Yes indeed, I like that tactic. Hopefully your opponent won't notice twice the normal number of spotting rounds coming down. Doubled up 75mm is good like that too, not to mention the larger stuff, if you can risk wasting it if the enemy pulls back and you blast where they ain't.

[xerxes]

I like the combination of light shells(3" or 81mm) with some heavy shells (4.5" or 120mm). Anything in the target zone breaks in a turn.

-marc

[Ligur]

I almost never buy 81mm or 75mm against human opponents, since they only suppress and don't do even that well... You CAN get lucky and catch the enemy in the open but most of the time the 1-2 minutes before the barrage starts will prevent that. In general, facing 75mm or 81mm, I don't mind. I just sit it out. A light barrage can of course stop you from attacking, since the troops dislike running in the open and charging under those conditions =P

I have recently learned to use 4.5", 105mm and 155mm quite effectively, and will buy it whenever I can. Nothing much saves my target when the grenades start landing. Either he is prepared to run immediately or then he must wait it out, watching his platoons whither to nothing... I love that stuff. My greatest fear in TCP/IP these days is that my opponent has bougth heavy arty and will use it properly.

[Commander Slip Digby]

Originally posted by John D Salt:
What is the best thing for attacking infantry to do under indirect fire: Advance out of it, or take cover?From history (WW1) it is known that the English shelled the German trenches non stop for almost the entire war, Before suicidal attacks, After suicidal attacks and often during suicidal attacks (well, you might hit some of them as well!) and the outcome was generally very poor. Even air attcks on dug in targets are usually not effective as anything but a direct hit will usually have no effect. I would say Dig in, Dig Deeper, and when if your losing - change sides, it's easier and it cuts down on the paper work.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Commander Slip Digby:
From history (WW1) it is known that the English shelled the German trenches non stop for almost the entire war, Before suicidal attacks, After suicidal attacks and often during suicidal attacks (well, you might hit some of them as well!) and the outcome was generally very poor.On the contrary, Allied artillery at Vimy was remarkably effective; once troops knew how to lean on a moving barrage, they were quite effective. Espeically once they had shells that could cut barbed wire.

I wasn't aware the "suicide attack" was a standard British tactic, but of course we just had this discussion recently...

[Commander Slip Digby]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
I wasn't aware the "suicide attack" was a standard British tactic, but of course we just had this discussion recently...If you don't think that getting out of your trench and very walking slowly toward german heavy machine gun fire across no man land isn't suicide i'd hate to be in your regiment..

"Come on lads, there's only 50 HMG's! - it'll be a laugh"

And besides - if artillary fire was that effective - we wouldn't need ground troop would we. just cleaners. and mops.

and troops.

[PiggDogg]

Ligur,

You are quite wise to fear your human opponents having big arty (105 & bigger) and using it effectively. In these cases, your guys are going to die unless your split the scene quickly. :eek: Sometimes, when you have little warning of a big arty barrage, your guys are going to die big time. :(

Besides running from the enemy's big arty barrages, you need your own big arty & use it effectively to turn the tables on your opponent. ;)

Cheers, Richard tongue.gif

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Ligur:
I almost never buy 81mm or 75mm against human opponents, since they only suppress and don't do even that well... You CAN get lucky and catch the enemy in the open but most of the time the 1-2 minutes before the barrage starts will prevent that. In general, facing 75mm or 81mm, I don't mind. I just sit it out. A light barrage can of course stop you from attacking, since the troops dislike running in the open and charging under those conditions =P

I have recently learned to use 4.5", 105mm and 155mm quite effectively, and will buy it whenever I can. Nothing much saves my target when the grenades start landing. Either he is prepared to run immediately or then he must wait it out, watching his platoons whither to nothing... I love that stuff. My greatest fear in TCP/IP these days is that my opponent has bougth heavy arty and will use it properly.I think it is wise to use the right MIXTURE of artillery (what is also historically accurate, as the line units had organic (mortars, etc.) and inorganic (i.e. off-map divisional) artillery support.
The small caliber and fast reacting mortars are perfect for suppressing advancing units until your heavy artillery comes in. I have experienced that a successfull artillery tactic is:

- target with small mortars (ideally off-map (spotter, I NEVER buy on-map mortars) and LOS) AND heavy caliber (and I mean 150mm and larger) at the same time.
- the mortars will supress enemy until the heavy shells come down.
- once the heavy shells drop down, adjust the mortar fire to directions likely to be retreating paths (enemy infantry will - voluntarily or not - try to evade arty fire by running to covering terrain).
- usually 8-12 rounds of the heavy babies are enough to initially stop and panick an advancing platoon, or even make them Hamburgers. So do not waste ammo by firing 5 turns on the same target
Those grunts which are not running away (the running ones you hopefully hit with the mortars) and are taking cover will re-appear after a minute or so. so do not CANCEL the target but ADJUST it.

[Ex Bellator]

Fine artillery tactics, but in CMBO don't you just find that you have expended 300 points of ordinance to kill about 100 points worth of infantry that way?

I agree with those who say Hide if being hit by <105mm and Withdraw over 105mm. My own preference is for the heaviest arty I can afford - 150 plus - I never bother with the light stuff after many months of playing.

On one pccasion I fought the AI using several 120mm mortar spotters on his intantry on one flank and one 8 inch battery against a very similar force on the other. The mortar spotters quickly broke and scattered his infantry throwing them back in confusion for around 10 turns and causing many casualties. However 10 turns later the survivors had reformed and resumed the attack.

The 8 inch simply wiped them out on the spot, and cost less overall. I then used the infantry freed by the lack of opposition on that flank to rush over and help defend the other. Just an example.

Also personally I'm a big fan of on map mortars, particularly the 3'inch. just goes to show how many different ways there are to play this game I suppose.

[Ozzy]

Well, depends on the situation - artillery cannot take/control a location - I need ground forces for that purpose. This is true for both sides. If I manage to decimate and supress enemy units, it is much easier to fight them with my ground units.
If a squad has already suffered 10-30% losses and was once panicked (without my infantry having fired one single shot), it is relatively easy to defeat.
So purchasing sufficient artillery and less, but good infantry might improve your chances significantly, even if enemy strength was initially superior.

Note: this is not a general rule, only one of several options!

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:
Fine artillery tactics, but in CMBO don't you just find that you have expended 300 points of ordinance to kill about 100 points worth of infantry that way?
I found that the most cost-effective modules kill about 35-40 men per 100 regular spotter purchase points, the less effective ones 20. That is after finding a company spread out in woods, not fleeing.

I have to agree that artillery is a fearsome instrument, both in real life and CMBO. Thinking about anti-spotter targets ist probably a good idea.

[History Buff]

What I do?

If I notice a single explosion, indicating a direction finder shot, I get em up and run like hell. If it is to late, I'll leave em there and let them take cover. Running is the worst thing by far you can do under arty fire.

Get Low boys!!!!!!!

If they are things like rockets, or 105mm +, well I'll think I'll run regardless cause your dead either way probably.

[Monty's Double]

Remember, the benefit you get, especially from light/medium arty, is not just killing enemy forces, but the effect on their morale status. That's why a rolling barrage is most useful; the closer your assualt is to the barrge, the more shokced your opponent is likely to be, and the more advantage you gain in assault. Supression worls fine on guns too. I find 81mm/3" mortars ideal for supressing guns (especially as they are usually in woods) so I can bring up direct fire HE assets to finish them off. Because they are cheap, it's often worth speculative fire against likely hiding places.

[Michael Emrys]

Monty's Double makes a very good point that the people who are only counting the kills miss. Arty is good for suppression and softening up prior to sending in the grunts to finish the job.

As for suppressing guns, don't underestimate the lowly 60mm mortar in this role (the 2" may work too; I just don't have much experience with it). Especially if you can get two or more working over the same target. Even when it doesn't force the crew to take cover, it seems to slow ROF and mess with their aim. And I have actually killed a few guns by direct hit with 60mm, although the 81mm is better for that. Now if only we could get those mortars in 'tracks to fire indirectly...

Michael

[Heibis]

Many good suggestions here, I will add one missing:

In Stalingrad, the Soviets employed the tactic of staying so close to the enemy that he could not use massed arillery for fear of hitting his own. In wooded or urban environment this tactic will work very well in CMBO. If hit by big artillery, I will sometimes close with the enemy instead of retreating. Works really good if you are using the gamey SMG-squads or Allied paras. :)

Just my 2 European cents,

Jens

[Gen-x87H]

If I am in town and it looks like it is 120mm or less and Im in large buildings Ill stay because by the time myt guys run out from underneath it they will be hurting. Might as well take a chance and let the buildings eat up the arty. At worst my toon will go bye bye but it will take 3 times as much arty to do it. Arty is the number 1 killer on the battlefield.

If we are in trees and it is 105+ then I withdraw as fast as possible. I would rather lose a little ground and live to fight another day. With most of the people I play they follow up the arty attack with an infantry rush.

Gen

[Walker]

So after everything said above, a simple question:

Do you take more casualties from 81mm/120mm mortars in woods or in open ground/brush?

Chris Walker

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Walker:
So after everything said above, a simple question:

Do you take more casualties from 81mm/120mm mortars in woods or in open ground/brush?

Chris WalkerWell....someone ought to run some tests. :D

Thing about arty is that if your men are kissing dirt (hiding/taking cover) then they will suffer fewer casualties. However, in open ground they are far more likely to stand up and run for cover thus taking more casualties....

OTOH, treebursts in woods/tall pines/scattered trees will do more damage than shrapnel will in the open regardless.

That being said, I would never keep my men in the open while under any kind of fire at all. Get moving to some cover!

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Walker:
Do you take more casualties from 81mm/120mm mortars in woods or in open ground/brush?
You shouldn't throw 81mm and 120mm into one basket, they are very different beasts. The real quastion here is how 75mm howitzers and 81mm mortars compare.

The open is more deadly. The treebursts feel extremly nasty, but they affect fewer squads at once.

As said in the other thread, I have a gut feeling that 81mm mortar fire is actually more dangerous in scattered trees than full trees.

[Fenster]

It's fine and dandy to have ways to avoid deadly barrages on the attack, but what about escaping heavy shelling on defensive end? Can you make an entrenched heavy AT run fast? what is it you say, North South is that it? Fact is while a heavy gun is dug in, and you're taking intense arty fire, you'll lose it, and more often than not without it having fired one shot. So while you wait for a Sunday pucnch @ close range, and just when you're ready to take out that tiger, you lose your darling AT to heavy arty, and there's nothing you can do about it but lose the war. When being attacked by Tigers and heavy arty, who cares about losing ineffective grunts, it's the big guns that can save your ass.

[Michael Emrys]

Sounds like you aren't putting your guns in concealing terrain, such as woods. Do that and give them a hide order until a proper target comes within range.

Michael

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Fenster:
Can you make an entrenched heavy AT run fast? what is it you say, North South is that it?
No way. You can't even evacuate the crew without the gun, unless you knock it out yourself (which I did).


Fact is while a heavy gun is dug in, and you're taking intense arty fire, you'll lose it, and more often than not without it having fired one shot. [...] When being attacked by Tigers and heavy arty, who cares about losing ineffective grunts, it's the big guns that can save your ass.Defending in CMBO is very hard if you don't limit the units, like in Fionn rules.

If you play unlimited, and you have to prepare for all ranges of attacking forces, from pure infantry, to Wasp rushes, to Super Pershings, the only way I see is small guns for light armor and infantry, and having Jagdpanther or Panzer IV/70 to shoot heavy armor.

If there isn't lots of woods or bush with good gun positions, and the attacker may use VT artillery, he can just go over all gun positions and kill them without even looking.

I had two subsequent games against the same person, one time me attacking, one time him. If you max out force choices in late months the defender has no chance whatsoever.

I know limits and rules suck, but I require much of them when defending.

[AUSSIEJEFF]

I don't see much mention of the all important (IMHO) words SMOKE BARRAGE so far.

For me, in anything other than dense wood/heavy fog/night scenarios, often one of the most valuable uses of arty is to lay a thick cordon of smoke between my advancing infantry and enemy positions. Or even a dummy smoke barrage to sucker the enemy into thinking you are about to attack that spot on the map when you are in fact about to sneak a flanking move.

Smoke barrages can often let you get real close and enable an infantry rush with full firepower at close range. 81mm and 120mm or 4.2" mortars are ideal for this with their rapid ROF and relatively short delays (compared to big arty FO's). Of course, the occasional big KABOOMBA is fun to watch...... hehe

Does anybody else have a liking for using up some (sometimes ALL!) of their arty resources for smoke barrage tactics in CM? I'm curious,

AJ

[Michael Emrys]

Good point, AJ. I am rather surprised at how little I use smoke in CM, given that is my prime force multiplier in TacOps. There, I use huge amounts of smoke to render OpFor essentially impotent while my BluFor troops continue to use their thermals.

But in CM, where artillery availability is more limited, and one is forced to choose between HE and smoke (somewhat of an artificial restriction, BTW, as a battery would likely have had both kinds of shells on hand, though in limited supply), I tend to opt for the destructive capacity of arty. Still, I have done just what you suggest at times and put down a curtain of smoke to get troops (and more often, tanks) across a dangerous stretch of terrain.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by redwolf:
You can't even evacuate the crew without the gun, unless you knock it out yourself (which I did).This caused me to have a brainstorm: CM needs a new order for gun crews: Abandon or Spike the Guns. The Abandon Gun notion has been floated before, I know, but the thought was to leave them in working order so that they could be remanned. But if you knew you wouldn't likely be returning to them any time soon, you wouldn't want them to fall intact into the enemy's hands.

Michael

[Big Ron]

I tend to take an 81mm mortar FO and something big and tasty. Save 20-30 rounds of the 81mm for use as smoke during the 'assault phase' of the battle. Use the big stuff with the 81mm as described earlier i.e. mortars to pin my opponent while waiting for the heavy stuff

[exSpecForSgt]

I find this a very "interesting" topic, having some small experience with it. smile.gif

I've played CM quite a bit and can't really comment on how "accurate/realistic" the results are. (Sometimes it seems to be more and sometimes less. <shrug>)

In RL, however, you need to understand what exploding shells 'do'. Yes, of course, they throw sharp bits of metal all over the place ... -but- =how=?! If the round hits the ground, it goes off so-called "instantly"; i.e.-it goes off right away...but the shell is still dropping, burrowing into the ground while the fuze burns off. So, you get a crater of x-size in the dirt, a '-cone-' of shrapnel, and an expanding ring of blast (=not= to be discounted as 'only hot air'!). If you hit the deck, you're relatively 'safe' as long as the shell doesn't drop right on you. Crawl just as fast as you can towards 'hard cover'. -Do- =not= rise up even as high as 'hands & knees' because that will put you within range of one of those 'cones'.

Then again, if you're unlucky enought to be "infantry in the open", hey, you're scr#wed anyway! Oh, and forget completely about guess-timating the 'size' of the in-coming! If you're "veteran", you -might- have a small chance of doing it while under fire ... but even then you're going to be spending more time melding into the dirt than calmly analysing the caliber of the stuff falling on you! Trust me on this one!! smile.gif

If you're in the woods, et al, well, yeah, you have a bunch of cover to try to hide behind/under, and that -is- worth something. OTOH, sharp pieces of wood traveling at high speeds will mess you up just as badly as sharp pieces of metal. Hmmm, so I guess that in some ways, getting shelled while in the woods is worse than being in the open ... but that =really= isn't saying much!!

You know, this is beginning to bring back 'bad memories', so I think I'll stop here and go have lunch, or something. smile.gif

Take care, all, and remember: there is a -very- good reason artillery is called the King of the Battlefield.......

[Aco4bn187inf]

US Army infantry doctrine in the mid 1980's was to run away as fast as possible if you come under artillery fire. I always wondered about that one, but fortunately never had to find out if it was a good idea.
In CMBB I like on map mortars as an anti AT gun weapon. Here's a trick also- you can knock out an AT gun without actually coming into its field of fire by firing HE shells right next to it. This is a good method for thin skinned SP guns or tanks to use. (You must locate the AT gun first of course, usually the hard way.)
Also, an artillery trick- if you have artillery that takes a long time to plot a fire mission, call for the mission early where you expect enemy targets might appear. When your spotting round arrives, keep adjusting fire around the map until you have a target. The point is that the adjustment takes a lot less time than initiating a fire mission. The only drawback is that you expend some ammo as spotting rounds while you're doing this, but it can be worth it. It might also cramp your opponent's style if he is seeing spotting rounds coming down all the time.

[tar]

This caused me to have a brainstorm: CM needs a new order for gun crews: Abandon or Spike the Guns. The Abandon Gun notion has been floated before, I know, but the thought was to leave them in working order so that they could be remanned. But if you knew you wouldn't likely be returning to them any time soon, you wouldn't want them to fall intact into the enemy's hands.
This could be combined, in necessary, with the "Withdraw" command. Either unconditionally, or using a pop-up like the "Use Maingun?" one for tank targetting.