Inaccuracies and peculiarities in the Armament of the Hungarian Royal Army

[Epaminondas]

The vehicles already seen, namely Turans, Toldis and Csaba etc… are superb pieces, they match to the last rivet. Except for the Zrinyi II assault gun’s howitzer, that is too thin. To vehicle had 52 munitions: 30 HE, 16 hollow charge and 6 smoke. (in practice, half and half anti-tank rounds). So, the assault guns were used anti-tank rounds. Zrinyi II had 75mm front armour-plate (no 50mm).

To Toldi I tank and Csaba armored car had not automatic cannon, on the other hand equip with self-loading gun (Hungarian: nehez puska = heavy rifle). The sound is heard yet automatic. To 40M 40mm AT gun had this mistake also.

To Nimrod had 160 shells, and 6 crew (no 5 crew). In the game:
- Nimrod, caliber 40mm: 26 HE, 9 AP
- Ostwind,caliber 37mm: 195 HE, 55 AP.
Something is defective here, with ratio.

I haven’t seen any 36M 40mm/ L60 Bofors air-defense cannon in the patch list. Now there is some kind of Flak instead, that besides is caliber-length L56.

In the hand of the army officers one can see a Walther P38 pistol, they used this undoubtedly, however 29M or 37M Frommer self-loading pistols were established.

The Hungarian infantry used 31M and 35M Mannlicher infantry rifle in general. One can find rifles with Mauser type bolt-action in the hand of the soldiers. At the beginning of the ’40s our engineers transformed the 35M according to a german request for the Wehrmacht. This was also established in the Hungarian army as well, under the name of 43M, this is the one that slightly resembles a Mauser Kar 98. However it is not that.

With friendly greetings from Hungary

[ December 07, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[Gud]

After reading two excellent books on Hungary in ww2 - "Don 1942-1943" by P.Szabo and "Budapest 1944-1945" by M. Sowa I have found more additions to Hungarian OOB:

I) 1942-1943 period:

1. 2nd Army (1942-1943) used following AT-guns:

37mm Bofors
37mm PaK
47mm Belgian
50mm PaK
75mm PaK 97/39 (most)
75mm PaK 40 (few)

2. SMGs were far less common - one-two per platoon usually, exc. for recon units (one per squad)

3. Russian captured weapons were widely used (i suggest Russian SMGs, Maxims, 45mm and 76mm guns)

4. Hungarians used sometimes the 80mm Bofors Heavy AA gun in direct-fire role.

II. 1944-1945 Period

1. Hungarians did use Panzerfausts, certainly during the siege of Budapest

2. As mentioned above, Zrinyi had AP/HEAT shells and was quite succesfull against Soviet tanks.

3. There are no Arrowcross (Hungarian fascists) formations in the game.

[Ex Bellator]

Hi Epaminondas,

Re: The 20mm 'Autocannon' sound, I mentioned this on another thread. I wondered if it was actually an autocannon, or possibly modeled as one in error.

In the end it seems that BFC went for one sound effect for all 20mm guns of any type. So the gun model is apparently OK, but the sound effect is wrong.

Unless BFC decide to introduce another 'one shot' 20mm effect as well as the existing one (probably unlikely) then we are stuck with it.

[ December 02, 2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Battlefront.com]

FINALLY! We've been waiting for some Hungarian Grogs to show up smile.gif Welcome!

I must say that the research of Hungarian forces was the most difficult of all nations. The data available is sadly very hard to come by in English (or German even). We did the best we could, and I think that your lists are short enough that we should feel pretty good about what we did smile.gif

It will take some time to comment on the bulk of the points made here, but here are a few quick ones I can comment on now:

In the hand of the army officers one can see a Walther P38 pistol,This is what all Axis nations have for pistols. Unfortunately, the graphics engine was not designed to display different pistols graphics for different nations. In fact, CMBO didn't have pistol graphics at all smile.gif But from a game standpoint, there is no impact.

The Hungarian infantry used 31M and 35M Mannlicher infantry rifle in general. I was wondering when someone would notice smile.gif The small arms were finished at the last minute. A couple did not get into the game for 1.0. The 1.01 patch fixed some of these, but the 35M is still missing. That is correct. It should be fixed for 1.02.

SMGs were far less common - one-two per platoon usually, exc. for recon units (one per squad)Very true, but it depends on the year. For the most part each Squad only has one SMG, until the rebuilding period inbetween Stalingrad and the offensive against Hungary itself. My sources indicated that the frontline troops were generally able to field two SMGs per Squad.

Also, it is difficult to make a Platoon have less than one per Squad. Because we had no solid evidence that the number was less than this, on average, we kept it simple with one per Squad.

There are no Arrowcross (Hungarian fascists) formations in the game. True. It has been a year since I did the research for this, so forgive me if I am wrong here... but it was my understanding that such forces were not of any significance in terms of frontline or even occupied territory fighting?

Thanks!

Steve

[Gud]

OI ! We have atrracted the attention of Powers That Be !! Tremble !! We're not worthy, we're not worthy etc :D

Seriously:

Arrowcross - after Germans took over Hungary many new ad hoc units were rushed to front, including Arrowcross, Hungarian SS (Waffen-SS Regiment "Ney"), auxilla units (military police, security etc.). In general these units used the German principle of using auto weapons to compensate for lack of training with rifles/MGs. Weapons used were often captured Soviet/Jugoslav SMGs, German MP's and mandatory PzFausts and Molotovs.

SMGs - yes the 1/platoon ratio was on paper, most likley more weapons were "acquired" along the way.

LMGs - Honved made great use of Jugoslavian LMGs, esp in Pioneer and Cavalry units.

Toldi - I have info that surviving Toldi tanks had skirts attached in 1944 (not that it made much difference...)

Cheers,
Gud

[Epaminondas]

Hello!

Ferenc Szalasi’s party (arrowcross) got control over the country, after 15. October 1944. So-called Armed Nation Service and Armed Party Service’ members served, as auxiliary military force, or they fought, as ad hoc combat group. Regiment of Karoly Ney hussar-first lieutenant and SS-Sturmbannführer equiped with armament the Waffen-SS. Two Waffen-SS division organized in Hungary, namely 25. Hunyadi and 26. Hungaria, but the troops have not trained. These troops used german uniform.

I send some pictures.
To the war's beginning manufactured, approx. 565000 31M and 35M infantry rifles. (cartridge: 8x56R mm)
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597749.jpg
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597734.jpg

During the war manufactured, approx. 91500 43M Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597736.jpg http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597747.jpg

Nimrod issue. We see, that 5 crew in the turret and 1 crew is the driver.

http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597750.jpg

Nimrod combat-technological chart
Crew-Személyzet (top)
Munition-Lőszerkiszabat (below)
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597738.jpg

To be continue....

[ December 18, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[uhu]

Thanks for the quick reaction Battlefront! (in the name of all hungarian CMBB fans smile.gif

Epaminondas was rigth about theese things, which should be correected. Maybe, if ti helps, i can get the mail adress of my friend, who works in the Hungarian Militaric Archive - he could give information about hungarian equipment and OOB.

Some other minor "bug": i don't know, how it is completely in the game, but it is not almost correct, when Tigers and Panthers avaible were.
-Tigers: from 44.july-44.sept (some saw action at the battle of Torda in sept)
-Panthers: from 44.sept-44.febr.

Panzerfausts: from the mid of 44., about all inf. battalion had a panzer-destroyer platoon (35-40 men), mostly all of them had one pf. It could be modelled, that the tank hunters have 2 pf-s.

xxx

By the way, I thank you lot, that you have so accuratly modelled the hungarian units - plus this is the first game, which has hungarian voices in, and is not a local version!



Originally posted by Battlefront.com:
FINALLY! We've been waiting for some Hungarian Grogs to show up smile.gif Welcome!

I must say that the research of Hungarian forces was the most difficult of all nations. The data available is sadly very hard to come by in English (or German even). We did the best we could, and I think that your lists are short enough that we should feel pretty good about what we did smile.gif

It will take some time to comment on the bulk of the points made here, but here are a few quick ones I can comment on now:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In the hand of the army officers one can see a Walther P38 pistol,This is what all Axis nations have for pistols. Unfortunately, the graphics engine was not designed to display different pistols graphics for different nations. In fact, CMBO didn't have pistol graphics at all smile.gif But from a game standpoint, there is no impact.

The Hungarian infantry used 31M and 35M Mannlicher infantry rifle in general. I was wondering when someone would notice smile.gif The small arms were finished at the last minute. A couple did not get into the game for 1.0. The 1.01 patch fixed some of these, but the 35M is still missing. That is correct. It should be fixed for 1.02.

SMGs were far less common - one-two per platoon usually, exc. for recon units (one per squad)Very true, but it depends on the year. For the most part each Squad only has one SMG, until the rebuilding period inbetween Stalingrad and the offensive against Hungary itself. My sources indicated that the frontline troops were generally able to field two SMGs per Squad.

Also, it is difficult to make a Platoon have less than one per Squad. Because we had no solid evidence that the number was less than this, on average, we kept it simple with one per Squad.

There are no Arrowcross (Hungarian fascists) formations in the game. True. It has been a year since I did the research for this, so forgive me if I am wrong here... but it was my understanding that such forces were not of any significance in terms of frontline or even occupied territory fighting?

Thanks!

Steve</font>[/QUOTE]

[BlackVoid]

I have one good source regarding hungarian infantry equipment.
This is the book of Bela Erdelyi: Blood and Steel
He was a company commander during the withdrawal fighting in the winter of 42-43.
He lists available equipment of his company several times. Unfortunately he does not give actual weapon types.
Here is one example:
Officers: 5
Men: 130 (4 platoons)
Pistols: 5
Machine guns: 1 (7600 rds for it)
Light machine guns: 9
SMGs: 22
Rifles: 91
Hand grenades: 500

So indeed, they had at least 1 SMG per squad. The author mentions a special squad who had only SMGs. They were assigned to the most dangerous tasks.

He also mentions that the russians had a lot of SMGs. He regarded SMGs as superior to rifles. It is interesting that in CMBB SMGs are really not that good. You are better of with rifles in most situations.

He also mentiones that the weather was extreme cold, around -30 C, and of course the ground was covered in snow. This should also be fixed for QBs. This is the south region of the front.

BTW, did anyone know, that Hungary was about to attack Romania in the summer of 1940? Both armies were ordered to the common border.
This was in the end prevented by german diplomatic intervention.

[Gud]

Some more info:

Nimrod certianly had more AP ammo, it was meant to be tank-destroyer !! I have info that it had Tungsten ammo (?/) as well was able to fire SteilGranate (as per 37mm Pak).

Some links on 2nd Army

Hung. Tank Specs (http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/HungArmSpecs.html)
2nd Army Data (http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/Hung2Army.html)

[Michael Dorosh]

Just a word of thanks, and welcome, to the Hungarians - you're not the only ones who want to see this all modelled correctly; CM fans around the world look forward to seeing the info you are thoughtfully and generously providing. It's of benefit to us all.

[Gud]

Well, actually I'm Polish, but as old saying goes:

"Polak Madziar dwa bratanki i do szabli i do szklanki !"

(Pole and Magyar are two nephews, both with sabre and with glass !)

And so Hungary in ww2 is my little hobby :D

[Gud]

Damn, I forgot to post link to Nimrod gun reference. here it is !!!

Hungarian AT data (http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/shellsHu.html)

[Mike]

Hey Gud - slightly off topic - do you happen to know any good sources on battles in the 16th & 17th century involving Hussaria??

[Epaminondas]

Mike, the best site about hussars are a Polish site, in English. www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm (http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm)
True that, the site is engaged in winged hussars, a with special kind. The Hungarian matters are, only in Hungarian, unfortunately.

Toldi I issue: gun: self-loading (20mm), 208 shells, machine-gun: 2400 bullets (8mm)
Toldi IIA: gun:55 shells (40mm), machine-gun: 3200 bullets (8mm)
Toldi III: gun:87 shells (40mm), munition: 3200 bullets (8mm)
Toldi III light tank combat-technological chart:
munition-lőszer javadalmazás (below)
gun-a löveghez
machine-gun-a géppuskához
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597737.jpg

Turan issue: Side armour of the Turan I and Turan II tanks had only 25mm thick. (no 40mm).
40M Turan medium tank chart:
Armour-Pancelzat (below)
Front-mellso függőleges
Side and rear-oldal és far
Top-alsó es felső
Munition-lőszerkiszabat
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597745.jpg

Csaba issue: Armour of the Csaba armoured car is not accurate.
Front armour: 13mm (this is good)
Rear and side armour: 9mm (no 7mm)
Gun: self-loading (20mm), 200 shells, machine-gun: 3000 bullets (8mm)
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597742.jpg

36M 40mm air-defense gun issue: (originally Bofors), caliber-length L60
There:
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597743.jpg
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597748.jpg http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597739.jpg

To be continued...

[ December 18, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by Epaminondas:
Mike, the best site about hussars are a Polish site, in English. www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm (http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm)
True that, the site is engaged in winged hussars, a with special kind. The Hungarian matters are, only in Hungarian.
Yhanks - I have read that site and corresponded with the author - unfortunately I don't regard it as very good - his explainatoin for the Hussaria's successes - that their lances were longer than pikes - is nonsense. The lances were certainly as long or sometimes longer than pikes, but there's a lot more to it than that IMO.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by Epaminondas:
During the war manufactured, approx. 91 500 M43 Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)
is that about as potent as 30.06?

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by manchildstein II:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Epaminondas:
During the war manufactured, approx. 91 500 M43 Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)
is that about as potent as 30.06?</font>[/QUOTE]A little bit bigger actually. IIRC 30.06 is a 7.62x51.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by manchildstein II:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Epaminondas:
During the war manufactured, approx. 91 500 M43 Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)
is that about as potent as 30.06?</font>[/QUOTE]A little bit bigger actually. IIRC 30.06 is a 7.62x51.</font>[/QUOTE]i believe 7.62x51 is .308 nato... about equivalent to the german 7.92... the soviets had a 7.62x54 bolt action (maybe their semi-autos used it too) so i was just wondering where 30.06 fit in... 7.92x57 sounds like a powerful slug...

i have a shooting buddy who always made fun of my m1a1... saying the .308 was a 'pansy pellet... sissy slug... you need a garand'...

actually the .308 is pretty substantial in my book... even the 7.62x39 (ak-47) seems pretty robust...but the russians have gone to .... what?... 5.54 or somefink?

still, i 'crack up' every time i think, 'sissy slug' or 'pansy pellet'....

ymmv

[flamingknives]

The German Mauser round is the 7.92x57mm - larger caliber and larger charge than the NATO 7.62, hence a more powerful round.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by flamingknives:
The German Mauser round is the 7.92x57mm - larger caliber and larger charge than the NATO 7.62, hence a more powerful round.isn't the german mauser the same round as the mg42?... i thought they used the same cartridge for both their rifles and mgs...

[flamingknives]

isn't the german mauser the same round as the mg42?... i thought they used the same cartridge for both their rifles and mgs... Yes. Also known as the 8mm round, IIRC. I'm guessing it was called the Mauser round as the rifle came first.

[Epaminondas]

Zrinyi II issue: Accurate designation of the assault gun was 40/43M Zrinyi assault howitzer or Zrinyi II (no Zrinyi, so simply). Our engineers designed the vehicle, with long barrel (caliber 75mm), this was namely the Zrinyi I or 43M Zrinyi assault cannon, from of this they maded only prototype.
Side and rear armour of the Zrinyi II assault gun had only 25mm thick (no 40mm). Front-armour 75mm (no 50mm).
gun: 10,5cm howitzer, caliber-length: L20
52 shells: 30 high-explosiv, 16 hollow-charge(cumulative), 6 smoke

Zrínyi II combat-technological chart:
Armour- pancelzat (below)
Front- mellsö
Side and rear- oldal es far
Munition- Löszerjavadalom
30 HE- 30 repesz
16 hollow-charge- 16 pc. robb.
6 smoke- 6 ködgr.
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597740.jpg

The assault gun's howitzer is slightly thin in the game.
There in the original.
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597744.jpg
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597741.jpg
To be continued...

[ December 13, 2002, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[illo]

Nimrod had 40mm bofors with 120 rounds regarding to this site. http://mtg.ipx.pl/wegry/lekkie.htm

[illo]

Here Structure and Equipment, Summer 1942, hungarian army.
http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/Hung2Army.html

[Epaminondas]

Anti-tank gun issue:
The 40M 40mm AT gun was developed from originally German Pak36 37mm. The new cannon-barrel was far length.
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1571526.jpg

The 2nd army equiped with 36M 47mm AT gun, that turned out to Don river. The gun was German plunder from Belgian campaign. After the Don disaster Hungarian soldiers could save few equipment. The 36M 47mm AT gun is too powerfull in the game, actually the cannon's shell penetrated on much less armour.
100m - 60mm - 90degree
300m - 47mm - ????
500m - 45mm - ???
700m - 41mm - 90degree

Weapon originally: 47mm SA FRC (Belgian)
Caliber-length: L32 (no L41)

The gun is on the way.
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597735.jpg http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597746.jpg

The gun fire about firing platform.
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1597753.jpg

PzIII issue:
The Hungarian troops didn't use PzIIIj(short) tanks, on the other hand, they used PzIII M medium tanks. Hungarian designation of the vehicle: Pz. III. M közepes harckocsi.

Approx. that's all.

[ January 04, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[Epaminondas]

In the Hungarian Army organized parachute troops. True, only few battalion fought, but the "Szent László" division's soldiers struggled with best performance. For example, in the battle of Budapest, they defend the southern area, in autumn (1944).

Will be appear the 29/38M 8cm air-defense gun (originally Bofors) in the game, by chance ? This cannon was one typical weapon of the Hungarian Army.

http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1570429.jpg

[Gordon]

Do any of the Hungarian contingent have good references for AVF camouflage used during the war?

Thanks,

Gordon

[Michael Dorosh]

double

[ December 19, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/ranks.htm

I'm also looking to complete my Hungarian Responsibilities Table on the page noted above - if any of our esteemed Hungarian friends can help?

Basically, I want to do for them what I did for the Germans or Finns on the page - ie find out what ranks were typically held by men commanding battalions or companies, and by men leading platoons or squads. Also stuff like whether or not the Hungarians had the equal of a company sergeant major, regimental sergeant major, etc., or who the highest ranking NCOs were in the various infantry units.

[ December 19, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Gud]

Some (vague) info on Hungarian camo patterns:

Page 1 (http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/cromwellHU1.html)

Page 2 (http://www.cidwebs.com/armorinscale/cvampsdec.htm)

[Battlefront]

Originally posted by uhu:
Some other minor "bug": i don't know, how it is completely in the game, but it is not almost correct, when Tigers and Panthers avaible were.
-Tigers: from 44.july-44.sept (some saw action at the battle of Torda in sept)
-Panthers: from 44.sept-44.febr.
Uhu,

I think there is a typo in what you posted about the Panther dates, as they seem to be reversed or something. When should the Panther be available to the Hungarians?

Thanks,
Charles

[ January 03, 2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Epaminondas]

Originally posted by Gordon:
Do any of the Hungarian contingent have good references for AVF camouflage used during the war?

Thanks,

GordonApologize for late reply.
In the Royal Honvédség (Army) was established two type pattern. The game include either (the yellow-brown-green mixture), another is simple dark green camouflage.
For example: Csaba commander armored car with framework antenna.
http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1672135.jpg
Tibold Antal's work


There, some different camouflage: 40M Nimród

http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1672134.jpg

40/43M Zrínyi assault howitzer (Zrínyi II)

http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1672138.jpg
Bíró Ádám's works

Toldi I light tank

http://kep.tar.hu/epaminondas/images/pic1672137.jpg

[ February 28, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[Epaminondas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/ranks.htm

I'm also looking to complete my Hungarian Responsibilities Table on the page noted above - if any of our esteemed Hungarian friends can help?

Basically, I want to do for them what I did for the Germans or Finns on the page - ie find out what ranks were typically held by men commanding battalions or companies, and by men leading platoons or squads. Also stuff like whether or not the Hungarians had the equal of a company sergeant major, regimental sergeant major, etc., or who the highest ranking NCOs were in the various infantry units.Apologize for late reply.
The highest ranking NCO was the "alhadnagy" (approx: sub-lieutenant).In the Royal Honvédség (that came to an end 08. May 1945) don't use the company sergeant major (törzszászlós) rank, this established in the Hungarian Folk Army, in the communism.

The Royal Hungarian Army's rank classification:
Honvéd - men without rank ---- honvéd
Tisztes - approx. junior NCO's ---- őrvezető (private 1st class, lance corporal), tizedes (corporal), szakaszvezető (sergeant)
Altiszt - senior NCO's ---- őrmester (staff sergeant), törzsőrmester (approx: sergeant major), főtörzsőrmester (approx: commandant sergeant major), alhadnagy (approx: sub-lieutenant)
Tiszt - officer ---- zászlós (warrant officer), hadnagy (2nd lieutenant), főhadnagy (1st lieutenant), százados (captain), őrnagy (major), alezredes (lieutenant-colonel), ezredes (colonel)
Tábornok - general ---- etc.

The raj (squad) was commanded by szakaszvezető (!!! so accurate)(sergeant), or őrmester (staff sergeant).
Szakasz (platoon) - hadnagy (2nd lieutenant) or főhadnagy (1st lieutenent)
Század (company) - százados (captain) or őrnagy (major)
Zászlóalj (battalion) - őrnagy (major) or alezredes (lieutenant-colonel)
Ezred (regiment) - ezredes (colonel)
Dandár (brigade) - ezredes (colonel) or vezérőrnagy (brigadier general)...etc.

[ January 04, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[Gud]

Pure trivia question - how do you pronouce the ó in Nimród ? Is it same as Polish ó, read - "Nimrud" ??

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Epaminondas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/ranks.htm

I'm also looking to complete my Hungarian Responsibilities Table on the page noted above - if any of our esteemed Hungarian friends can help?

Basically, I want to do for them what I did for the Germans or Finns on the page - ie find out what ranks were typically held by men commanding battalions or companies, and by men leading platoons or squads. Also stuff like whether or not the Hungarians had the equal of a company sergeant major, regimental sergeant major, etc., or who the highest ranking NCOs were in the various infantry units.Apologize for late reply.
The highest ranking NCO was the "alhadnagy" (approx: sub-lieutenant).In the Royal Honvédség (that came to an end 08. May 1945) don't use the company sergeant major (törzszászlós) rank, this established in the Hungarian Folk Army, in the communism.

The Royal Hungarian Army's rank classification:
Honvéd - men without rank ---- honvéd
Tisztes - approx. junior NCO's ---- őrvezető (private 1st class, lance corporal), tizedes (corporal), szakaszvezető (sergeant)
Altiszt - senior NCO's ---- őrmester (staff sergeant), törzsőrmester (approx: sergeant major), főtörzsőrmester (approx: commandant sergeant major)
Tiszt - officer ---- zászlós (warrant officer), hadnagy (2nd lieutenant), főhadnagy (1st lieutenant), százados (captain), őrnagy (major), alezredes (lieutenant-colonel), ezredes (colonel)
Tábornok - general ---- etc.

The raj (squad) was commanded by szakaszvezető (!!! so accurate)(sergeant), or őrmester (staff sergeant).
Szakasz (platoon) - hadnagy (2nd lieutenant) or főhadnagy (1st lieutenent)
Század (company) - százados (captain) or őrnagy (major)
Zászlóalj (battalion) - őrnagy (major) or alezredes (lieutenant-colonel)
Ezred (regiment) - ezredes (colonel)
Dandár (brigade) - ezredes (colonel) or vezérőrnagy (brigadier general)...etc.</font>[/QUOTE]Outstanding! Thanks very much!

[Epaminondas]

Originally posted by Gud:
Pure trivia question - how do you pronouce the ó in Nimród ? Is it same as Polish ó, read - "Nimrud" ??No.
Hungarian o letter - pronunciation, short o (so simly)
Hungarian ó letter - long ó
Other example: Csaba armored car - Cs letter - pronunciation - like the English ch letter

[Gud]

Great thanks !!!

[uhu]

I think there is a typo in what you posted about the Panther dates, as they seem to be reversed or something. When should the Panther be available to the Hungarians?

Thanks,
Charles[/QB][/QUOTE]

Hello Charles!

Yes, I wrote it wrong: Panthers were avaible for the hungarians from 44.sept to 45.febr.

Very exactly: Hungary became 5 Panthers in 44.aug. - the destination was to upgrade the Royal Hungarian Army to german weapons. (In the plans was also, that the hungarian armored divisions should have 1 battalion of PzIVs, and 1 batt. of Panthers.) The 5 example were for learning reasons, but they were sent in combat in 44.sept. (There are several memorials, in which is the fact, that Hungary became another 10-12 Panthers, which were originally sent to Romania, but for known reasons, the romaninans didn't bacame it.)

The last wroten data of hungarian Panthers is in the militaric diary (is that the correct word for that?) of AG South in 45. febr.: the 2. hungarian armored division had 1 usuable Panther in febr.17.
But the report from 45.march.3 doesn't mention any Panthers more.

Tigers were avaible from 44.jun to 44.july. (10 example) The panzers were used before that time by the sPzAbt. 503 (they crew travelled back to Germany to learn the using of King Tigers)
There are memories, that at the Fights in West-Hungary (Dunántúl) in 44.dec to 45.march there was a company of Tigers with hungarian crew, but with german markings.

Hope these "few" infos helps. ;)

Uhu

PS: Please don't forget to correct the Zrínyi II (they should have AP/HC rounds also) and the tankhunter problem (they had panzerfausts - see the earlier posts)

[uhu]

Oh, I forgot the wrote the source of these info's. (I mentioned one: the militaric diary of AG South)

2., The Book from Attila Bonhardt/Gyula Sárhidai/László Winkler: The Weapons of the Royal Hungarian Army (I think, this is a "ground-book")

3., An article from Nobert Számvéber, who works in the Hungarian Militaric Archive. (not as cleaner-personal smile.gif )

[Gordon]

Thanks for the camo references, I must have missed the update.

Gordon

[uhu]

I had observed, that the rarity of several armoured vehicles used by hungarian forces is also fair represented.
I can't give the exact %, but I write here the facts, so Battlefront could calculate from them.

Source is again the book The weapons of the Royal Hugarian Army from A.Bonhardt, Gy.Sárhidai, L.Winkler (in hungarian language) and an article from N.Számvéber.

I don't mention again the Panthers and Tigers, beacuse I mentioned them above.

The 2 2. armoured division got in 1944.jun. from the germans 10-12 PzIIIM-s, 12PzIVH-s, 10 StuGIIIG-s (and the Tigers). So, in this time, the rarity of that type of AVF-s should be not so high - also therefore, beacuse in this time only this armoured division was fight-ready, the another one (the 1. armoured division) not.

The 2. armoured div. got in 1944.sept. another 20 PzIVH-s . (there is no info, how many were lost from the earlier 12) So, the rarity-rate should be lower, than in 44.jun.! In the battle at Torda was the division hardly weakened, but that time is the 1. armoured div. also in action with several PzIVH-s, (not many - there isn't exactly data) so in october, the rarity-rate should be a little higher, than in september.

After that time, there isn't exactly data. how many PzIVH-s vere avaible: the whole number of the tanks given by the germans is about 72 . After the siege of Budapest, there is only the 2. armoured div. left, bacause the 1. was in the siege destroyed. So the PzIV-s reported in the 2.armoured div. represents the whole number of hungarian PzIVH-s.

So:
1944. nov.-dec.: the rarity-rate should be little higher, than in oct.
1945. jan.20. In the weekly report of the division, we can read about 26 fight-ready*** PzIVH -s, so the rarity-rate should be sure not so high, - maybe so high, as in 44.oct - even, if that represents the whole hungarian PzIVH number.

***Under fight-ready I mean vehicles, which are currently avaible for fight. Another ones are probably repaired.

1945.febr.: The rarity-rate should be higher, than in jan., because, in the heavy fights (Operation Konrad) the div. was weakened - the weekly report shows fewer fight-ready vecicles.

1945.march.: The rarity-rate should be between the rate of jan. and febr., beacuse before march.14. there was pause in the fights, but after the major russian attack, there were no ordinary refits, only hasty withdraws.

1945.apr-maj.: Ther rarity-rate should be very high - there isn't much left from the hungarian army...

Thanks for the attention, and excuse me fro the long post, but it must be done! :cool:

Uhu

[uhu]

Ouch! "The rarity-rate of several..." is not fair represtented !!!

[Battlefront]

Thanks Uhu, I've made changes for v1.02.

Charles

[uhu]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:
Thanks Uhu, I've made changes for v1.02.

CharlesThanks Charles,

CMBB is surely not only the best WW2 game, but also the datas of the Royal Hungarian Army are the most correct ones in the history of WW2-wargames. Now, hopefully, it will be almost perfect. tongue.gif

Uhu

[Zimorodok]

A little bit of information I found today on Turans. Some of it is new information, some of it is the same as we already have in this thread.

Turans (http://www.activevr.com/afv/muzzle.html#TURAN)

Zimorodok