Setup zones in an operation - a query (Design or Bug?)

[General Tacticus]

Here is an screenshot from the setup phase of a operation. As you can see, two T43's have been isolated in their own little setup zone. My question is : Shouldn't their coloured bases be blue? As it stands I can just pick them up and put them anywhere in my main setup zone...but I can't move them an inch within the Blue zone.

http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~stv262/setup.jpg

[ December 08, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[Bimmer]

I noticed this very same issue, right down to the setup zone color, in an operation I'm testing right now. Further testing may be in order, but on the face of it it seems like a bit of a bug.

[General Tacticus]

I'm still not sure if it's a (*wisper*) bug, or it happens by design. If it IS by design, it isn't how I expected it to work. smile.gif

[Mike]

Just a thought (I'm doing my first scenario now, so I'm not REAL experienced!), but did you place teh tanks and THEN place the setup zone around them?

I'm using multiple setup zones in mine but I did all the zones first and tehn placed teh troops in them.

An alternative possibility - was that area originally part of the red zone?

[General Tacticus]

No...these are computer generated setup zones....the frontline has shifted back and left the 2 tanks out on thier own. This is the fifth battle in an operation.

This is not some trick/feature of the scenario editor... smile.gif

[Mike]

Oh - right - sorry - missed that bit!! :rolleyes:

[General Tacticus]

After reading the manual carefully...this is not how it was designed to work...yes, that's right...it is a bug...there, I said it... ;) smile.gif

You can all get back to whinging about not being able to shoot horses now tongue.gif

[ December 05, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[Michael Emrys]

Uh, I'm not so sure it's a bug exactly. More like an unintended feature. ISTR that I read somewhere—don't recall whether in the manual or here on the board; probably the latter—that if a unit is too far forward of the FEBA at the end of a battle in an operation, at the start of the next battle it will be in its own isolated setup zone. It also won't get resupplied between battles. Did you check for that?

The thing I don't understand is how you were able to change them to another setup zone. That could be a bug.

Michael

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:
The thing I don't understand is how you were able to change them to another setup zone. That could be a bug.

MichaelThat's what I mean :D
Everything else is working just right...unit SHOULD be getting isolated etc...but they are not being colour coded correctly...hence they can't be positioned correctly. Those two T34's shold have a blue base, and I should be able to move them arround inside the blue box. But I can't. However, I can pick them up and dump them anywhere in the red zone...completely avoiding the problem of being isolated.

[Kingfish]

Here's a theory: The blue zone is not a setup zone, but instead a boundary that prevents your opponent from setting next to your now isolated tanks.

Notice how your tanks are locked into the middle of the blue zone, with plenty of space all around. That space is a buffer zone. Because of it, your opponent cannot set up a dozen tank killer teams all around your tanks as long as the tanks stay in the middle of the blue.

If you were allowed to reposition in the blue chances are you would deploy closer to an edge, negating the safety of the buffer zone.

[General Tacticus]

Thats a fairly good theory...except the units are not padlocked...I can just move them to the red setup zone and place anywhere in it I like.

It maybe that the two T34's should have Orange bases (ie are padlocked). It maybe that they shold have Blue bases, and can be moved around in the blue zone. But they have Red bases - that just can't be right, can it? smile.gif

[Kingfish]

Thats a fairly good theory...except the units are not padlocked...I can just move them to the red setup zone and place anywhere in it I like.Thats the computer giving you the option of pulling your isolated tanks back into friendly lines.

Think about it. Two of your tanks have advanced beyond the FLOT, and are isolated inside enemy territory. What are their options? Either they can sit tight, or pull back into friendly lines. If they sit tight they cannot move inside their blue buffer zone. If they pull back they can redeploy freely within their lines. Makes sense to me.

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Kingfish:
...Think about it. Two of your tanks have advanced beyond the FLOT, and are isolated inside enemy territory. What are their options? Either they can sit tight, or pull back into friendly lines. If they sit tight they cannot move inside their blue buffer zone. If they pull back they can redeploy freely within their lines. Makes sense to me.It makes sence in that picture I posted...they are just 100m from the red zone, and can probably reverse to it with any problems (they are in "no mans land" after all...no bad guys are near by...I know that.)

BUT...I have built a test operation where a platoon of infantry gets isolated 1km from the red zone, and I can still move them freely back to that zone. Thats a lot of enemy held ground (open in this case) to cover :D . Another slight problem...they seem to get bumped out of thier foxholes (maybe because I deployed them to close together for the computers comfort..), and because I can't tweak their postions in the blue box...well you see the slight problem....it not a biggie.

I think you are on the right track with the "blue zone"...it probably is a "buffer".

Here (http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~stv262/test.zip) is the test operation I built. Play as the soviets (or hotseat)...hide all your infantry and fast forward through the 10 ten turns. German tanks will advnace and cut off one platoon....

[ December 06, 2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[Hensworth]

I don't think this is how BTS intended it to work.

* activate smug self-congratulatory tone*
Say - wouldn't that make a nice official way of reporting bugs in future :D .
*de-activate smug self-congratulatory tone*

I recently had a platoon become isolated around a few buildings. Due to the above behaviour I had the choice between leaving them marooned inches away from the relative safety of the inside of those buildings, or pulling them all the way back to my main setup zone. However, repositioning them ever so slightly to put a wall between them and the advancing Nazis was not an option. This - clearly - is a nonsense.

BTSPFODS.

[Cpl Carrot]

Bump

[Hensworth]

Bump again.

[General Tacticus]

http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~stv262/setup2.jpg

Here is another result...just as odd. I have modified the test operation mentioed earlier to test the setup zone behaviour from the Axis side...
This is the setup phase at the start of battle 2. 6 T34's are between the pictured platoon and friendly lines. I can just pick them up and place them in the green setup zone - this time there is no zone around them at all....

Can this be the correct behaivour???

[ December 08, 2002, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[Hensworth]

Are the BTS guys on holiday ?

Surely this is worth some attention.

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly:
Surely this is worth some attention.Well...I do have a special talent for naming threads in such a fashion as to have them completely overlooked... ;) :D

Perhaps if I renamed it to "My sneaking horse transport has exausted the retreating monster tanks" it would get a bit more recognition ;) tongue.gif

[General Tacticus]

A hopeful *bump* from page 3.

[Sigurd]

What kind of operation are you playing ?

If it's an "advance" type, perhaps the manual page 156 give us the explanation :
"Units which end the last battle in no man's land are automaticaly shifted back to their own front lines"
Hence the free move back to the friendly lines observed in your screenies.

But if you're playing "static" or "assault" type of operation, it won't help explaining this capability...

[ December 09, 2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Sigurd ]

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Sigurd:
What kind of operation are you playing ?........ if you're playing "static" or "assault" type of operation, it won't help explaining this capability...Yep...I've got that one covered. The first example is a "Static" operation. My test examples are "Assault" operations.

[General Tacticus]

Oh BFC, please grace this unworthy thread with your presence. Explain how this is not a bug, but rather a feature that will make the world a better place....

Or *bump*, if you prefer... ;)

[arkai88]

I too would love to find an answer to this problem as I have just tried my first operation design and am running into the very same problems.

[JPS]

Does anyone know if this (how frontlines exactly work in operations) is covered in the strategy book?

[Cpt Kernow]

bump

[SgtMuhammed]

I had the same problem in a premade scenario. I ended up with about half my tanks ahead of the FLOT with no zone around them. As with yours I did have the option of moving them back into "my" territory.

[arkai88]

bumpity-bump-bump
bumpity-bump-bump
look at frosty go

[Cpt Kernow]

bump till resolved

[klapton]

Sigh!

[Cpt Kernow]

taps fingers on desk

[Slappy]

I'l bump this with my explanation for the situation, because I am interested in the 'real' answer.

I have seen this and always assumed that it was by design. Having the forward units immovable within their zone, but movable back to the full zone gives the player two choices:

1. Pull them back (simulating having withdrawn those units between battles).

2. Live with them where they are (they are cut off and subject to only limited input from the CO.

Essentailly, the crappy position in the new zone is the price you pay for starting with units that far forward.

[arkai88]

I tend to agree with you Slappy. I just finished a small operation of my own design and came to that very same conclusion. I think the manual is simply misleading in saying that units could end up 'padlocked' if caught in no-man's land.

[arkai88]

Bump

[General Tacticus]

OK....it seems we are leaning towards "Design" rather than "Bug"

I would still prefer units to be "cut off", but it seems that this doesn't happen. An explanation of why it is designed this way would be nice... ;) smile.gif

[arkai88]

'sighs heavily'

[JPS]

Does anyone reading this thread have the strategy guide? Any info on topic?

[Kwazydog]

Hi Guys,

Yup, slappy has it right there, this is happening as designed.

The idea is that if you move forward beyond your lines those units can become cut off from the main set up zone, but able to stay in position. This allows you to choose between staying in your forward positions or pulling back to friendly lines.

The down side to staying put is that you cannot maneuver your units. Generally you would want to pull your armour back to safe positions as they have probably been spotted and the enemy will move armour assets into that area to counter them. On the other hand, infantry could very well have move forward to an area of cover where you would want them to stay put in the hope of moving up other units to support.

Ideally it would probably be preferable if we could have allowed units to move within their forward box, but that isnt possible under the current system. The problem is that it wouldnt allow players to pull back but it would allow them to move to other forward positions unrealistically. This is something that will be recieving a total overhaul in the rewrite though :)

Dan

[General Tacticus]

Heh...I didn't see this reply. Thanks for the clarifaction, Dan.

[coe]

I'm going to link my post into this one...yes but in an advance operation, if your men are in cover at the end of the first battle and the operation set up zone moves past them, they should not start up the next battle scattered around and not in cover (especially since you can't move them
unless wayyy back into your zone).