CMAK AAR -- Questions & Comments--Part 2 Posted!

[WWB]

Ask your questions for the allied commander to the CMAK AAR (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/cmak_aar_part1/) here. I will answer them as best I can.

WWB

<font color="red">[EDIT: Sorry for the intrusion smile.gif I have changed the topic to a general CMAK AAR discussion, so that questions to both the Axis and Allied commanders can be posted here. - Moon]</font>

Part Two (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/cmak_aar_part2/) is posted!

WWB

[ October 25, 2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: WWB ]

[von Lucke]

Well done: The two combatants' blow-by-blow is to the point, but with enough color to keep it interesting. Sorry it only goes to turn 10! I want to know if those Marders pummel the Lees near the road house! (MMMM, Lees and MGCs!). When do we get to know the ending?

Was also interesting how much both players relied on dust --- for spotting enemy movement, and for concealment kicked up by arty bombardment (*Begin Grog Alert* Even though, from what I've read, the attack by 33 Recon / 8th Panzer was made in the pouring rain *End Grog Alert*).

Soooo, is this scenario going to be in the Demo? Is it? Huh? Huh? Is it? Huh?

[ October 10, 2003, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]

[Kwazydog]

Btw guys, note that those screen shots are using earlier beta graphics in some places...I think updated shots will be put up soon though.

Dan

[Jim Boggs]

Excellent job guys. Really well written.

Those dust clouds would seem to open up a whole new venue of options, including deception. Nice touch there!

Of course it inspires one to want to play, but for the meantime, we can play it through your AAR.

Thanks Guys!!

[Stavka_lite]

I have just finished reading the AAR...WOW! I do have two questions. I noticed that "move slowly" was mentioned for armor. Is this a new command or was "hunt" used?

This question is not meant as a negative statment but a guage of readiness. How "buggy" was the game when you were playing?

It looks like another winner for BF.C

[SirReal]

Whaaaat!! You can't leave us hanging like that! You will immediately concentrate all of your waking hours on that game until the AAR is complete!

[BulletRat]

***Droooooooool***

Write the rest soon puh-leez! tongue.gif

[Michael Dorosh]

I take it the Grants will be properly identified as M3 Lees in the actual release? ;)

Good AAR, though, I do hope this scenario will be in the demo? Gotta have multi-turrets in there!

Is it me, or is that 75mm gun way too long; the pics I've seen show that end of the muzzle at about the same position laterally as the tip of the front fender, even on CW variants with the muzzle brake.

EDIT to remove big picture that requirese scrolling


hmm, On War does show a longer 75mm gun in this Hunnicut drawing: (image can't be remote linked)


http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/plans/medm3.gif

And this:

http://tanks2go.com/images/USlee-1.jpg

Musta been two kinds of 75mm armament for the Lee?

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/m3rus.jpg

[ October 11, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
I take it the Grants will be properly identified as M3 Lees in the actual release? ;)
Properly identified as scrap you mean

[zukkov]

excellent aar! wwb, i expect you to do america proud and kick those hun bastards all the way back to berlin! you know, grab em by the nose and kick em in the pants, that sort of stuff. USA USA USA... lol..

[Lawngnome]

as far as the M3 goes, this is only beta, so a generic long 75mm could have been used....

looks good, nice battle so far!

my only question for the allied commander would be why did you set up your ATG on your far left flank instead of using it near the mosque on a wall or in the orchard? From what i read about the MGMC in the orchard it had a nice area of fire.

Of course, it is somewhat hard to depict rises in the terrain from the screenies, but I am just curious.

I was rather shocked that the axis commander used 105mm artillery on tanks.... there can't be a whole lot of ammo for that spotter, shouldn't it have been used against suspected infantry positions? Well, regardless, it did spook the M3's.

Just guessing, but this might cause the axis infantry a lot of problems when they advance into the open against the allied infantry.

[Adam L]

Originally posted by Lawngnome:
my only question for the allied commander would be why did you set up your ATG on your far left flank instead of using it near the mosque on a wall or in the orchard? Default Scenario locations, I think.

I was rather shocked that the axis commander used 105mm artillery on tanks.... Centre of Gravity, or else just plain fun. But in the case of the former, it goes something like this:

If the axis commander has a strong suit in armour, and the allied commander needs to rely on a few precious tank assets, it can pay off to spend the 105's on the enemy tank assets hoping for something, even a gun damage.

All the Axis commander has to worry about is winning the armour fight. The 105mm won't matter a damned if he has lots of armour and the Allies simply have nowhere to run. So given that information, the Axis commander easily could have decided to try and stack the deck a little (however slight) in his favour for the armour fight. The rest will follow.

If he loses the armour fight, the 105mm won't be terribly useful. It is an attrition thing when you have no maneuver elements available (your inf. can't advance against his tanks, in the desert, on any operational scale), and that wouldn't be useful for this one battle. More useful in an operation.

Adam

[Lawngnome]

haha, as far as setup zones I had blanked on that!

yeah, I do agree that the armor battle is key, but it is expected for the Panzers to come out on top... smile.gif

[Kwazydog]

Just in case you guys dont know, we have continue to make CMAK's armour calculations as realistic as possible. Along with our own research Rexford has helped us out a lot with new info, suggestions, and research (as well as all of our beta testers smile.gif ).

Ive been contemplating the suggestion that *some* people didnt find some parts of CMBB as 'fun' as CMBO, and I think I may have figure out why (I must admit, even though I love the eastern front and CMBB, CMAK has an element of fun to it). I think that this could be because on the eastern front one side of another usually had the upper hand, either through technology or numbers (T-34's and KV-1's earlier, Panthers and Tigers in the mid years for the Germans, and Russian numbers and pure power later on).

CMAK has a real element of balance to its battles. Ive played this scenario many times myself and the outcome is really based on the player that uses the best tactics and thinks smart. The AI has managed to kick my butt many a time, even though I know what is coming...it is one hell of a battle. Those Lee's can be mean, but the Pz-III's used correct can really cause them some trouble smile.gif

Dan

[ October 11, 2003, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[...................................]

Michael - That was my first thought on seeing the Grant as well. The 75mm was a short howitzer and looks way too long on the screenie, more like a long AT gun. I'm not concerned by the modern picture of the tank as I suspect the 75mm is probably just a fake, all pictures from primary sources I have seen before show a short howitzer.

An example is below, the gun ended at the front of the tank, as in this picture of a Scots Grey's Grant in 1942:

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/Scots_Greys_Africa_1942.jpg

Maybe the 37mm looks a bit too large/thick as well? Regardless, the howitzer should definitely be shorter and fatter. The 37mm gun was actually longer than the 75mm, and AFAIK was supposed to be the primary AT weapon of the tank, with the howitzer for HE use on soft targets. Of course it didn't quite work out that way in RL.

As extra evidence I offer a photo of Monty's own Alamein Grant in the Imperial War Museum. As you can see the muzzle brake version of the howitzer is also much shorter than the CM model.

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8155/ImpWar/MontysM3.jpg

[ October 11, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Pheasant Plucker ]

[von Paulus]

Nice AAR smile.gif
Hope that the rest of this article is coming soon

[Marco Bergman]

Is it me, or is that 75mm gun way too long; the pics I've seen show that end of the muzzle at about the same position laterally as the tip of the front fender, even on CW variants with the muzzle brake.Late production M3s were fitted with the same M3 gun as fitted to the Sherman; earlier built examples had the shorter M2 gun. Late production appears to mean vehicles built approx July '42 to August '42, when production finished. (Some say Dec '42, for lend-lease.) Often these later versions had the side doors deleted also.

The muzzle brake you refer to is actually a counterweight which was often fitted to vehicles with the M2 gun; it was required to counterbalance the gyrostabiliser, which was set up for the weight of the longer M3 gun.

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks Marco and Pheasant. I have not seen an original photo of this longer gun in use, I am learning stuff already.

[Michael Dorosh]

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/cmak_aar_part1/allies/turn3.jpg

Incidentally, here is a look at the game interface from that article. (Look to the bottom of the pic, they forgot to crop it out - this was just mentioned in another thread.)

How come there are 50 stars on the US flag? :D

[ October 11, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Steiner14]

Taken from the AAR:

Action Phase: Lt. Wiedenbach jumps out of his SPW and runs to the top of the ridge. Quickly he scans the terrain, then runs back to his second SPW and explains the situation to the commander.

Really?! :eek:
Too god to be true, i guess. :(

[ October 11, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[WWB]

Glad you all are liking the AAR. A few responses:


I take it the Grants will be properly identified as M3 Lees in the actual release?Official identification is M3 Medium, the "Grant" misnomer is all me, mainly due to a bit too much reading on the brits earlier.

As for the guns, pay attention to the angle on the shots. Also, these are late production models.

my only question for the allied commander would be why did you set up your ATG on your far left flank instead of using it near the mosque on a wall or in the orchard? From what i read about the MGMC in the orchard it had a nice area of fire.There is another ATG behind the wall near the mosque, and that one was restricted to a setup zone on that side. It actually turned out to do very well, and I like the dispersion. 37mm ATGs are not going to do much frontal killing, at least not until point blank range. Better to be setup to take side shots, like, say, living way out on a flank. Also minimizes exposure to arty.

I was rather shocked that the axis commander used 105mm artillery on tanks.... there can't be a whole lot of ammo for that spotter, shouldn't it have been used against suspected infantry positions? Well, regardless, it did spook the M3's.I would be interested to hear Thomas' comments on this one. It definitely did distract my tanks while he moved through.

Steinar--call that dramatic license, its a bit too good to be true.

This question is not meant as a negative statment but a guage of readiness. How "buggy" was the game when you were playing?There are no new orders. As for buggyiness, it was definitely in an unfinished state so far as some skins and models, and the tacAI & OOBs are still getting tweaked, but it was rock solid. No CTDs or anything else one would expect with beta software.

WWB

[tlkiilerich]

I hope you don't mind I jump in here Wyatt, not trying to hijack your tread :)

I was rather shocked that the axis commander used 105mm artillery on tanks.... Your right that the spotter didn't have a whole lot of ammo, 60 rounds as always.
The thing is, I prefer using my artillery against targets I can see, firing at suspected enemy positions is IMHO most of the time a waste of ammo. Further more, as Adam_L already mentioned, if I can win the armored battle I have no need for artillery any longer. And if I don't win it, the artillery wont do me any good.

Guess Wyatt covered anything else.

Thomas

[Paul Hammond]

Great to see British Infantry wearing Bombay Bloomers, but they appear to be carrying lee-Enfiels Mk5's not The SMLE used up to end of 1942 early 1943. Western Desert types would all have The SMLE with bayonet fixed in action :eek:

It's too bad that the only people who know how to run the World are driving cabs and cutting hair George Burns.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Paul Hammond:
Great to see British Infantry wearing Bombay Bloomers, but they appear to be carrying lee-Enfiels Mk5's not The SMLE used up to end of 1942 early 1943. Western Desert types would all have The SMLE with bayonet fixed in action :eek:

It's too bad that the only people who know how to run the World are driving cabs and cutting hair George Burns. Mk 5? No such animal.

They are carrying the No. 4 Mk I; you are correct in that they should be carrying the No. 1 Mk III, but these are work in progress shots.

The No. 5 (not Mark V) was the jungle carbine, if that is what you are thinking of?

[Paul Hammond]

Yes Michael you are quite right, I got my marksman badge and a bruised shoulder on a Mk4!! Glad it will be sorted, ? a technical question , is it easy to add a bayonet or is that a bridge too far? redface.gif

[Thin Red Line]

Very nice AAR.

How does the cover arc command work for the multiple turreted tanks ?

[WWB]

Covered arcs work just the same. Obviously, one is generally better off having the 75mm pointed towards the enemy.

WWB

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by WWB:
Covered arcs work just the same. Obviously, one is generally better off having the 75mm pointed towards the enemy.

WWB Wish we could have a cover arc per turret ;)

Don't worry, I know it's wishful thinking. Still what's wrong with wishful? smile.gif

[athkatla]

Guys, great AAR, thanks very much. What has impressed itself on me is the significance of dust clouds. Obviously the sight of dust clouds indicates some vehicle movement, but also it can give you vehicle direction, and approximate guess at how many vehicles, where the stop etc. But also from the AAR, it was interesting to see how it was used as a deception plan. I have noted this in the back of my mind for when the great game makes its way to my computer, thanks again for an insight into one of the less obvious'weapons' of CMAK smile.gif

[Richie]

Sheesh, am I late? :confused:

[Gpig]

Hmmm . . . I wonder when the next installment is coming . . . ?

I might have to go and re-read the JasonC/Dorosh SMG AAR . . .

Gpig

[crocky]

Next instalment please smile.gif ..... looking forward to using NZ troops

[Moon]

I heard from the Wargamer staff that the next installment is planned for friday.

Martin

[Max BrauHaus]

The second part of the AAR is up. Just go to the Part 1 link, change the 1 to a 2, and start reading.

I'd post the link, but don't know how, and am too busy reading.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Thriling stuff. Go Yanks!!

[Björn Eriksson]

Here is the link to part two:

Part II (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/cmak_aar_part2/)

[midfieldgeneral]

As extra evidence I offer a photo of Monty's own Alamein Grant in the Imperial War Museum. As you can see the muzzle brake version of the howitzer is also much shorter than the CM model.

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8155/ImpWar/MontysM3.jpg [/QB][/QUOTE]

The above link didnt work for me, but i am pretty sure that the command tank in the picture you posted had dummy guns ... though if they were accurate copy that would not be an issue.

[CombinedArms]

Very cool AAR. Can't wait to try this battle--hope it makes the Demo.

Now a couple of queries regarding the Grant/Lee:
1. Why can't it fire from hulldown with the 75mm? Looking at the pictures of it, the 75 on the sponson doesn't look much lower than a typical main gun on a turret. It looks at about the same level as the gun on the low-profile Stug--just a little above the lower hull, yes, but above it nonetheless. So, why no hulldown for this gun? This could present real difficulties for the Allied commander in game play--hard to tell whether or not your tank will clear hulldown, etc. Maybe shoot and scoot will only allow you to used the 37mm, etc?

2. Does the 37mm really target independently? Say your Grant is facing a tank at 10 o'clock and an HT at 2 o'clock. Will the 75mm target the tank--turning in the process?-- and the 37mm separately target the HT? That would be cool to watch.

[tlkiilerich]

The reason the Grant can’t fire from hull down in this situation, is not only because it itself is hull down, but just as much because the target (Pz IIIN) is hull down. At the screenshot the Pz IIIN’s turret can just be seen peaking over ridge 2.

[Ricardo]

I notice that people are focussing on the dust raised by units as an obvious marker for troops(?)on the move. Also can be used as a tactic too but what struck me was a couple of times, the American player I think forgot about noise as a warning that mech units were on the way.

[WWB]

Noise warnings are still there, even if I did not mention them. But the dust is a bit more damatic and topical. I also find dust to be a generally more accurate indicator, especially when it comes to numbers.

WWB

PS: Tom, a player cannot target the 37mm and 75mm independantly. Which is reasonably accurate as there was only one TC to call out targets and help spot short rounds. The 37mm will fire on targets to the side though.

WWB

[ October 25, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: WWB ]

[Scythe]

Will there be a third installment or is that it? Cause the battle isn't really over at all ;)

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:
Very cool AAR. Can't wait to try this battle--hope it makes the Demo.

Now a couple of queries regarding the Grant/Lee:
1. Why can't it fire from hulldown with the 75mm? I would guess part of the reason, too, is that the 75mm gun is so much lower than the 37mm turret. The Grant is a TALL tank. If you have it behind enough cover to be considered hull down, that 75mm ain't gonna be able to shoot anything but the ditch/wall/hilltop you are hiding behind.

Steve

[Nero's Cat]

Great AAR - ceratinly whets the appetite for CMAK.

Is part 3 out yet?

[MikeyD]

Steiner 14 writes:
:...jumps out of his SPW and runs to the top of the ridge. Quickly he scans the terrain, then runs back to his second SPW and explains the situation to the commander.

Really?! [[Eek!]]
Too god to be true, i guess."

Yeh, too good to be true.
Remember, if the vehicle in question is listed with 4 occupants and only two are shown, perhaps one of those 'invisible' crewmembers hopped out to take a look!" ;)

CMBB, like many other things, is that much better with the help of a little imagination.

[Brujay]

Many comments on the new "dust" feature as both a warning and possible ploy. As to the latter, many of you no doubt know that Rommel more than once, as we was pushing the likes of O'Connor and Auchinleck east, ordered his trucks to spread out and tie branches and shrubs on their back bumpers to kick up tank-like dust clouds. Foxy, that Rommel.

[KnifeForkSpoon]

[cough] update [cough]

smile.gif

[Elmar Bijlsma]

*demo spoiler*
d
e
m
o

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
*

I hope I wasn't the only one who while playing the demo variant of this map kept fearing the moment when the Germans would move up their heavy stuff? Even with only the MkIIIs showing up the only thing that handed me a minor victory was the mauling of the German infantry. My tanks kept being partially penetrated by 50L60 fire but failed to even hit their opponent except with puny 37mm.

[PeterX]

the only thing that handed me a minor victory was the mauling of the German infantry. Though not designated as such, I sense this scenario was meant to be played as the Germans vs the AI, or 2 player. There are some CM solo battles for the defender out there, but they're rare.

[splooger]

I played the Americans in the Fruhlingswind scenario and all I essentially did was hit the "end turn" button and won a major victory. Anyone get a good showing out of the AI on the attack?

[rune]

I have gotten plenty of emails on this one. Here is one.

Plenty of action, excellent force balance, and a lot of subtleties in terms of the topo. I don’t know if you’ve noticed it in testing, but it seems as though the StratAI has dramatically improved, as it was mounting some competent multi-axis assaults on me (as I took Allies, wanting to get behind the Grants).


However, the AI is always better on the defense then the attack.

Rune

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I did notice in the demo that the tanks didn't converge on one road of advance but fanned out a bit to strike my entire line, after dealing with the defending tanks. While I was aware of the weakness of the AI on the attack this scenario made the AI look good. I was very impressed with the AI marshalling their PSWs into and along the wadi.

Either the AI was improved upon or the map was exceedingly well suited to it. I'm thinking both, very well done Rune.

[splooger]

I tried the scenario again as the Americans to see if the AI did any better but I got the same result: major victory and all I really did was press "end turn."

[Ligur]

As a disinteresting sidenote, the AI, playing as the defending US forces, knocked me around so bad my virtual hair dropped. PZIIIM vs Grant = I Should Have Found a Way To Get a Lot Closer.

Edit: I tried again, but didn't fare much better.

SPOILER! (as if people hadn't already tried the scenario).
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I was able to maneuver around 12 PZIII's to face off with 3 Grant tanks... From 200 meters... before the first shot was fired. The melee that ensued was mostly front vs front with some side shots. I used a ridge and some smoke to get that close. I even used the gamey "sacrifice a light tank to draw fire" (in this case the scout cars) to get free side shots on the Grants. Guess if I could even hit the Grants? No way. My tanks brewed up on the first shot very often though, and in the occasions my tanks were trying to flank the Grant crews displayed an uncanny knack of hitting a fast moving target with the first shot. I faced similar frustrating situations with CMBB often as well, I suppose nothing has changed and its just one of those days... In the end I was able to overcome the Grants but then had to face the Shermans with my virtually decimated force, which compelled me to surrender. Sigh. I have to try again ;)

[ November 25, 2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ]

[Bnej]

Well, I've not been able to get above a Tactical Defeat in this scenario in the demo.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with those scout cars, I move them over the ridge and they die instantly.

I can't attack the american positions from hull down positions at long range, since the PzIII gun does nothing at that range. Their 75s on the other hand deliver death on my tanks.

I've tried moving tanks up the wadi, but then they're stuck in the middle of the field with tanks on either side so they'll get hit no matter where they turn. I get a bit closer with this approach, but still lose my tanks and the attack falls apart.

I'm pretty new at the game - my laptop has a Geforce Go which only just got drivers good enough tp play - and I just don't see how to get my tanks close enough to be effective against theirs. I think I can get my inf. up to the enemy, but then they'll be sitting there waiting in a big tank. :( Any tips from people who know?

Still love the game, I have my CM:AK/BB bundle on order now. smile.gif

[s3333cr333tz]

I played this demo scenario with a friend, TC/IP. First mistake I made was not spending enough time REALLY looking at the contours of the map. In the end that came back to bite me painfully on the ass.

I think the key to this map for the Germans is the ridge on your left that flattens out near the road. This gives you cover against any armor the American player may have near the center of the map or oasis. In my game this was the avenue of attack I eventually chose, however it came a little too late. I had squandered some of my armor attempting to shoot it out from various positions. Some forward, in which they were heavily out gunned numbers wise and some from back on the first ridge. I never recieved any marders just 3 platoons of pzIII's forget the exact make, but they were all inferior to the Grants and Shermans at all ranges ;p

In anycase, I bumrushed him with all my armor around that ridge hoping to roll his flank and then go from there. Needless to say it failed and if it wasnt for a heroic effort by my last 3 panzers it would have been a massacre. Thanks to their brave last stand, in the end all my opponant had left was 2 shermans and some of his infantry. The battle actually came down to one last flanking attempt by a sherman. He rushed it over top of the ridglet getting side turret shots on my remaining 2 panzers. I anticipated this, and ran 4 or 5 squads to TRY and cut it off. My first squad to reach the sherman knocked it out, but it came 20 seconds too late. The sherman had killed one of my remaining panzers and immobalized the other which was attempting to reverse away presenting a side shot to the 2 shermans near the stone wall in the center of the map ;p

Dto the constraints of the map, further advance by my infantry would have been pointless and I surrendered saving the time his inevitable and unstoppable mop up would have taken ;p

I took HEAVY infantry loses trying to cross the ridge on my right side, I sent one platoon over the top there hoping to get them down into some cover there, but my opponant deployed minimum one infantry platoon and an ATG well forward there and he cut them to pieces before they could get under cover. Most of my MG's were decimated the moment I tried to sneak them into any prime firing position thanks in part im sure to how far forward he deployed on my right flank.

I sent one platoon up the wadi, and the balance on my left behind my advancing armors dust screen.

My consolation was that my wadi platoon eventually wiped out his left forward deployment but it didnt really save the day ;p

I think the battle would have been different had I gotten a platoon of marders but beggers can't be choosers I was just happy I got some armor to run that gauntlet ;p

All in all it was very fun, and im looking forward to see how the conclusion to this AAR turns out ;p

[synchro]

i think i was quite lucky in the Fruhlingswind demo. after a terrible start on my part, due to my not studying the terrain closely, i lost 2 PSWs in the centre of the ridge, with a 3rd KO'd by the Grant's Xfire - tho it did manage to cause the temple based half track to abandon before going up - and all 3 SPW/10s being torn to shreds at the <my> far right ridgeline [i just didn't realise how easily the allies could see my vehicles].
i arty'd the 2nd halftrack which i guessed left me with the 3 Grants and a AT gun at the temple wall. arty'd that, too, by the time i had positioned all 15 PzIIIs behind the ridgeline.
i used mortar stonk to take out the AT gun placed with the GIs on my right [it was well hidden until i got my recon troops forward enough to spot it.. but they had been slaughtered for this prize... only the plt HQ <hiding in the brush> got away with only one casualty].
so, with my PzIIIs ready for the off, & with at least 2 ATs and 2 75mm halftracks out of the way i figured 3 Grants should be easy. i think this was turn 11 or 12, maybe later than that? but the last PzIII plt took 3 mins getting into position [ i was being cautious after losing 6 vehicles to misjudging the terrain].
meanwhile, i used the central ravine to get a plt within 100m of the temple walls. i figured if there were any more ATs hidden then a quick charge closer might expose them but my 105s had done a good job of wasting one at least.
i sent that isolated recon platoon to sacrifice itself so that the armour would at least know of any more threats [ at this time i still believed there were only 3 Grants!]
i ordered the 3 Pz plts to go hulldown from left to centre ridge all at once... with 15 x 50mm L60 cannons roaring from hd positions they should easily deal with only 3 Grants, however tough they're supposed to be.
but within a minute one PzIII had hardly got a shot off when the crew bailed after taking multiple hits.
not so good. and what was worse there was def more than 3 AFVs. i could see 2 Grants and another that could've been a grant or a sherman AND an AFV icon. oh shee-ite... not good.
the only good news was that the minor inf charge toward the temple wall drew some of the Grants' fire for a short time and showed me that there wasn't another AT gun behind that wall.
i could see that one of the Grants was green. also good.
going on a bit here...
to sum up, using all 15 Pz was a good idea. they KO'd one, and caused the other 3 to bail [i believe the 5th vehicle retreated off-map when the reg HQ grant was KO'd]. i lost a 2nd Pz to the HQ grant but this was blasted apart by a Pz i shot forward to get it within 100 m [those 50mm shells were bouncing off! making the crews panic was the best i could do because my Pz really did pound them to no effect].
the same happened with the shermans that appeared from the road behind the wadi. but again such a mass of firepower, however weak the calibre at that range, caused a green sherman crew to bail out.
used fire and movement to get 5 Pz [now low on AP rounds] to move in and waste the inf defenders at the VL flag left and panicked the 2 shermans with fire on their flanks from my Pz left of the temple wall.
the remaining 2 shermans hiding in the cover of the orchard/trees eventually surrendered giving me a major victory.
but i believe i was incredibly lucky to only lose 2 Pzs to the Grants and with one of them retreating offmap. the early loss of the Grants meant i could keep the shermansfrom deploying and keep them under fire from along the ridgeline AND from their right.
lost a lot of infantry but it was a tactical use that allowed my tanks to get the range of the grants before they had to manouvre to get the 75mm's limited traverse in the right direction.
damn good demo.
as was the Line of Defence.
played the AI. thoroughly enjoyed it.
thanks
das

[dangerousdave]

Greetings, I'm new to this forum and to this game system (still waiting for my copy to arrive). But have been gaming for many years.

My first shot at this demo was a severe lesson in how to read terrain in this game. I gave up after less than 10 turns, burning hulks and dead troops everywhere. However...

On the fourth try or so as the AK, I finally managed a minor victory. I pretty much followed the strategy in the AAR on thewargamer.com, modified. I think a major victory can be had, but I will need to find more patience to get one.

Setup: I put one recon platoon and one PSW on the far right. This force was to be the first to advance and to attract attention. Feint right. The other two recon platoons were setup to go up the middle, down the wadi. I set them up to first advance to just below the ridge line and wait for the order to go over the top. I spread my MG 42s out to seek good overview spots along the ridge line. These things are not that much use in this scenario due to their lack of mobility. Maybe should give them a ride next time... The two FO's were set up to take positions near the middle of the ridge line, hidden until needed. Their officers set up to watch the progress and spot the enemy. My other three PSWs were set up to advance just below the ridgeline near the wadi, the plan was to have them sit and wait for possible shoot and scoot opportunities against soft armor.

The right side advanced into the brush using bounding overwatch. The other two platoons ran into the wadi, then using contact movement followed it to the exit point and sat and waited.

Meanwhile, as my armor reinfocements (with passengers) arrived, I sent them over to the left side to form up getting ready for a quick dash. The inf platoon on foot did the same (next time I would send this one up the wadi too because it took way too long to go by foot around the left and was very tired).

I tried taking potshots with SPWs at halftracks as they appeared. Shoot and scoot up to the ridgeline then backing down below it. I actually killed one of them, but lost all my SPWs fairly early on.

I used the mortar spotter to lay some smoke and readied my first charge. The smoke went a bit far. However, I ordered the charge anticipating it would land correctly. Therefore, I lost two tanks to opportunity fire. Next time I will be more patient .... In fact, it might be best to wait until all three platoons are available. I first sent two, then the third when it arrived.

However, the charge was pretty successful. Basically, I lined them up on the right side of the wadi, just hidden. Then, en masse, sent them on "move fast" to take up positions behind the little ridge just in front of the US position at the little house. From there, unload troops, organize, and get ready to take out the Grants. Using shoot and scoot, I'd have my Mk IIIs pop up to the ridge line (all at once) and take out Grants. I took out three quickly this way. The 50 mm gun can kill a Grant at this close range. Of course, I lost some tanks too, but not as many as I had trying this technique in a previous game from the back ridge.

With the third tank platoon, I sent one tank up the wadi. I would send two or three that way next time.

Once I eliminated the armor on the left (his right), I was able to take out that position and roll up the flank. At that point, I was able to bring the infantry up in the middle and shifting that from left to right. I found smoke again indespensable. In fact, all but one of my arty missions was smoke. The one that was HE had no effect. The fires started by enemy HE were helpful too.

The Shermans were a challenge, but once I did the flanking maneouvre, I was able to get side shots. Patience was key, as was shoot and scoot. I managed to end the game with 6 Mk IIIs left (one with gun damaged though). Many of the green US troops surrendered when I breached the line of foxholes behind the wall. If I can save a few more vehicles, I think a major victory can be had. I wiped out all but two US tanks. They had retreated over by the oasis. I would have had to make a very risky move to get them. Little did I know, they both had damaged guns....

Great scenario. I just hope the real game arrives soon.

[Schugger]

Downloaded the Demo, installed it and played my first CM game after several month. I missed CMBB entirely and have played the Demo once but never tried the full game (Booh! Hiss!). So what I knew dated back to the old times of CMBO. I could hardly remember when the AI has given me such a hard time as in the "Frühlingswind" scenario playing as Axis. Lost my PSW very early in the game but knocked out what appears to be two halftracks. Scouting by brewing up showed me a concentration of "M3?" tanks to my extreme left as well as two "Guns?" - I am lousy as a tank commander, something that will never change. My second experiance, which costed me dearly was that Infantry hits the dirt as soon as anyone farts at them, coward little Scheisserchens they were ;) Something has changed about suppression since CMBO, I somehow liked it but at the moment, while I got my butt kicked royally by the AI I was not entirely happy of what was going on there, in North Afrika, at my computer screen. Scary.
When my tank reinforcements appeared, along with more cannon-fodder I thought it was time to reconsider my tactics a bit. My first tank platoon has duked it out with the "M3s?" for a few turns, without much harm done by or to any side, with the exception of seeing none effective penetrations, obviously another feature. On my extreme right flank, the enemy was in a forward position along with one "Gun?", an MG and some infantry, digger in and in a somewhat isolated position, still busy of pummeling the remains of one of my Aufklärungs-heinis platoons. The 105 mm spotter had a clear LOS to that position and I gave fire orders and ordered one tank platoon along with a Panzergrenadier platoon to take up position behind the ridge. When the first shells landed, my tanks and infantry were in position and I first ordered the Panzergrenadiers to cross the ridge and enter the brush behind it. On the far left my Panzers were ordered to cross the ridge as well to engage the "M3s?" in a firefight to hopefully prevent them from shooting at my precious infantry. All went well this time, but I lost a IIIm in the tank firefighter but the artillery killed the Gun. Now the supporting tanks on the extreme right crested the ridge and together with their armored comrades on the right flank I enfolds the M3s in their position. No matter how they wheeled and turned, one tank platoon was always able to get side shots and thus they were knocked out within five turns.
The game was a real mainliner, right from the start and it continued to be until the end. While I tried to deal with the Shermans hidden in the Oasis, they killed two of my tanks at point blanc range and it was two of the remaining Aufklärungs squads who succeed in killing them. It is still a highlight seeing tanks knocked out by infantry. In the end I got a respectable 64 to 36 win - but I lost the follow up scenario "Last Line of Defence", so I don't think the learning process is over.
Great game, a must-have and will check out the stores as soon as possible.