Hedgerow terrain in CMAK?

[Bimmer]

With all the possibilities of converting CMBO scenarios to CMAK, one thing that would seem fairly important in order to recreate the Normandy battles would be the inclusion of hedgerows, yet these do not exist in the CMAK AO. Are there plans to include hedgerows in CMAK in spite of this in order to facilitate redoing the Normandy battles?

[Chad Harrison]

I was wondering the same thing. Personally, I prefer the western front over all others, and I would love to see a lot of player recreations of classic CMBO battles, and some new ones!

If not in the original CMAK release, could that be something patched in while we wait for CMX2?

Do we need to ask please? Or do we need to bribe with cinnamon rolls? smile.gif

Chad

[Snarker]

Remember reading something about "tall hedges" being included...

Edit: Found it -

Well no promises, so lets just say for now you guys might find a 'tall hedge' in CMAK that should be just what you need

Dan

[ October 15, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Snarker ]

[Michael Dorosh]

The treatment of bocage in CMBO sucked, why would you want to repeat it?

Bocage in real life was not set 20 metres apart, for one thing, secondly - it provided overhead cover which in CMBO it did not. Thirdly, Rhino-equipped vehicles simply moved at will through the bocage, which was horribly unrealistic, not to mention all AFVs were simply assumed to have the devices after a certain date, which again was overly simplified. Not to mention bocage was simply treated as a tall hedge when in reality it was a thick hedge atop large mounds of earth with tangled foliage and in many places a discernible canopy over the road.

The bocage in CMBO, in short, was nothing like the real thing, so why do you keep clamouring for it to be included in the desert game? I'm sure they'll get it right in CMX2. If they do get it right in CMAK, hey, so much the better, but given that the focus is the desert and the Med, don't get all pissed off when it doesn't come to pass.

Gee, I seem to recall Battlefront posting once upon a time that they were in the business to make money. That kinda runs counter to releasing CMAK as the be-all end-all of computer games for all time. Did you know that every troop and tank type for 83 different nations will be included, covering the years 1921 - 1974? India-Pakistan, Vietnam, Marines in Central America, Russo-Japanese 1945; should be a great add-on!

Not. :mad:

Honestly, the ability to redo some of our CMBO favs in CMAK will be a bonus, but if they decide not to include King Tigers, bocage, The Maus, motorcycles or the doodlebug, I am still going to be a refresh monkey on order night.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
The bocage in CMBO, in short, was nothing like the real thing, so why do you keep clamouring for it to be included in the desert game? I'm sure the Italians will be glad to learn that they live in a desert :D

[DaveT]

I'm sure the Italians will be glad to learn that they live in a desert No but they did fight a lot there.
Dave

[Franko]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
The treatment of bocage in CMBO sucked, why would you want to repeat it?

Bocage in real life was not set 20 metres apart, for one thing, secondly - it provided overhead cover which in CMBO it did not. Thirdly, Rhino-equipped vehicles simply moved at will through the bocage, which was horribly unrealistic, not to mention all AFVs were simply assumed to have the devices after a certain date, which again was overly simplified. Not to mention bocage was simply treated as a tall hedge when in reality it was a thick hedge atop large mounds of earth with tangled foliage and in many places a discernible canopy over the road.

The bocage in CMBO, in short, was nothing like the real thing, so why do you keep clamouring for it to be included in the desert game? I'm sure they'll get it right in CMX2. If they do get it right in CMAK, hey, so much the better, but given that the focus is the desert and the Med, don't get all pissed off when it doesn't come to pass.

Gee, I seem to recall Battlefront posting once upon a time that they were in the business to make money. That kinda runs counter to releasing CMAK as the be-all end-all of computer games for all time. Did you know that every troop and tank type for 83 different nations will be included, covering the years 1921 - 1974? India-Pakistan, Vietnam, Marines in Central America, Russo-Japanese 1945; should be a great add-on!

Not. :mad:

Honestly, the ability to redo some of our CMBO favs in CMAK will be a bonus, but if they decide not to include King Tigers, bocage, The Maus, motorcycles or the doodlebug, I am still going to be a refresh monkey on order night. Jeez, relax. He just asked if there were going to be any hedgerows.

Frank

[ October 15, 2003, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Franko ]

[Kwazydog]

And yes, chances are that you will see a terrain type with the same modelling as boccage had in CMBO. No, not perfect, but good enough to allow people to make Normandy terrain if they so desire. If this makes it in its a little gift for us to our fans who would like to be able to model such battles in CMAK smile.gif

Dan

[ October 15, 2003, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[SgtMuhammed]

Thanks Dan, I can die happy now. No wait I have scenarios to make!


P.S.

If you plan to take a trip to Normandy to see the Boccage or the Shingle don't bother, neither one is there anymore. There is a small section of Boccage south of St. Lo. although the precise location escapes me at the moment.

[ October 15, 2003, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: sgtgoody (esq) ]

[Bimmer]

Thanks, Dan. Glad to hear it.

[dalem]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

If you plan to take a trip to Normandy to see the Boccage or the Shingle don't bother, neither one is there anymore. There is a small section of Boccage south of St. Lo. although the precise location escapes me at the moment. I was in some near Surrein south of Bayeux in 2000.

-dale

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
Bocage in real life was not set 20 metres apart, for one thing, secondly - it provided overhead cover which in CMBO it did not. Thirdly, Rhino-equipped vehicles simply moved at will through the bocage, which was horribly unrealistic, not to mention all AFVs were simply assumed to have the devices after a certain date, which again was overly simplified. Not to mention bocage was simply treated as a tall hedge when in reality it was a thick hedge atop large mounds of earth with tangled foliage and in many places a discernible canopy over the road.What rankled my ass even more was that the Rhino tanks could pass through okay, but the hole they opened up in real life did not exist in the game. Infantry still had to climb through at the same agonizing pace and non-Rhino vehicles couldn't pass at all. As a consequence, I only played one or two games involving bocage and then avoided it entirely thereafter.

:( :mad:

Michael

[ October 15, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):
If you plan to take a trip to Normandy to see the Boccage or the Shingle don't bother, neither one is there anymore. There is a small section of Boccage south of St. Lo. although the precise location escapes me at the moment. I had no idea that that was the case?! What a pitty.

Dan

[SgtMuhammed]

Blame it on progress. As more French farmers aquired tractors they needed wider access. You can get a vague image of what it was like but you have to search to find the real thing.

The Shingle was our fault. Once we were ashore the Engineers bulldozed it all to make moving around easier. I guess it will be back in a few thousand years. You'll just have to delay your trip a bit.

[420]

CMBO scenarios with an updated engine. CMAK is going to be excellent! :D I loved the CMBB game engine, but I didn't enjoy the battles as much as I enjoyed CMBO.

[Bimmer]

If you're willing to risk getting lost on one-lane dirt roads, there are still many fine examples of unmolested hedgerows in some of the lesser-travelled areas of Normandy. Certainly not what it used to be, but representative examples can be found.

[tooz]

I visited Dieppe during the summer of '86. This beach is entirely covered with shingle. Pristine hedgerows were found in many places in Normandy, just go down any small one-lane road and VOILA!

[tooz]

Oops, make that '96, not '86. :rolleyes: Dieppe also is a GREAT place to spend a summer holiday! :D

[bobnickbob]

National Geographic did a whole section on hedge rows of France...
Sorry can’t remember the date.... will try to look through my old mags to find it.
Anyway there was a movement to preserve some of them. And a few people that still did maintain them for a living. After reading this I realized just how much of a obstacle they were.

BnickB

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:
And yes, chances are that you will see a terrain type with the same modelling as boccage had in CMBO. No, not perfect, but good enough to allow people to make Normandy terrain if they so desire. If this makes it in its a little gift for us to our fans who would like to be able to model such battles in CMAK smile.gif

Dan Wow. That's a suprise.

[Erwin Rommel]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
The treatment of bocage in CMBO sucked, why would you want to repeat it?

Bocage in real life was not set 20 metres apart, for one thing, secondly - it provided overhead cover which in CMBO it did not. Thirdly, Rhino-equipped vehicles simply moved at will through the bocage, which was horribly unrealistic, not to mention all AFVs were simply assumed to have the devices after a certain date, which again was overly simplified. Not to mention bocage was simply treated as a tall hedge when in reality it was a thick hedge atop large mounds of earth with tangled foliage and in many places a discernible canopy over the road.

The bocage in CMBO, in short, was nothing like the real thing, so why do you keep clamouring for it to be included in the desert game? I'm sure they'll get it right in CMX2. If they do get it right in CMAK, hey, so much the better, but given that the focus is the desert and the Med, don't get all pissed off when it doesn't come to pass.

Gee, I seem to recall Battlefront posting once upon a time that they were in the business to make money. That kinda runs counter to releasing CMAK as the be-all end-all of computer games for all time. Did you know that every troop and tank type for 83 different nations will be included, covering the years 1921 - 1974? India-Pakistan, Vietnam, Marines in Central America, Russo-Japanese 1945; should be a great add-on!

Not. :mad:

Honestly, the ability to redo some of our CMBO favs in CMAK will be a bonus, but if they decide not to include King Tigers, bocage, The Maus, motorcycles or the doodlebug, I am still going to be a refresh monkey on order night. Sounds like someone forgot to take his medication for the day :rolleyes: Geez!!!

I would love to have the posibility to recreate some of the scenarios from CMBO to CMAK

[mike_the_wino]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
The bocage in CMBO, in short, was nothing like the real thing, so why do you keep clamouring for it to be included in the desert game? I'm sure they'll get it right in CMX2. If they do get it right in CMAK, hey, so much the better, but given that the focus is the desert and the Med, don't get all pissed off when it doesn't come to pass.Botany grog.

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:
And yes, chances are that you will see a terrain type with the same modelling as boccage had in CMBO. No, not perfect, but good enough to allow people to make Normandy terrain if they so desire. If this makes it in its a little gift for us to our fans who would like to be able to model such battles in CMAK smile.gif

Dan Now this is some good news, thanks! smile.gif Makes me even more excited about getting CMAK!

[Redwolf]

Just a tall hedge that you cannot look over and than has moderate speed moving through (like walls are now) will probably do the trick pretty well.

The bocage modeling extras like the Allied cutters and the special spotting rules were not very effective, so just a medium LOS-blocking hedge is probably more desirable.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by redwolf:
Just a tall hedge that you cannot look over and than has moderate speed moving through (like walls are now) will probably do the trick pretty well.

The bocage modeling extras like the Allied cutters and the special spotting rules were not very effective, so just a medium LOS-blocking hedge is probably more desirable. I'm with you. The other thing that would make it complete would be to place the hedge on a one level rise in the ground above the immediate adjacent terrain to model the accumulated soil at the base of the hedgerows.

Michael

[ October 16, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Slappy]

The problems with the original bocage were not just the special vehicle rules. They had far more to do with infantry behavior w/r/t the bocage. Real bocage is something akin to rough with woods on top. It should provide substantial cover and protection to infantry, but did not in CMBO.

In fact, being in the bocage was very exposed and dangerous for infantry. "Well, it's just like a wall, you should be behind it, not in it", critics will say. Fine, but TacAI considers only the terrain units are in when going to cover/panic, not intervening terrain. This made the bocage terrain in CMBO fundamentally unhistorical and unusable without foxholes placed behind it to calm the infantry due to the large swath of open ground on either side.

As it stands, you'd be far better off using an elevated string of woods to represent the bocage (good cover and concealment, impassible to vehicles). I am very excited to see this 'large hedge', but if it's simply the CMBB hedge extended up to 2m, it won't work for bocage any better than what we had in CMBO. Unless units in the terrain recieve and recognize cover, or cover panic is seriously toned down, it will continue to be unusable for hasty defense.

Another angle on this which would have considerable rewards for other situations as well would be the ability to place terrain like walls and bocage INSIDE other terrain. This would allow you to place a large hedge in a rough or scattered trees tile, thereby simulating the terrain more realisticly. It would also solve the cover panic issue and make the TacAI much more 'comfortable' near the bocage. As a side benefit, it would allow walls and fences running through scattered trees (why not) and make realistic modeling of dense european villages and towns much easier.

Anyway, that's my opinion.