Alrighty Then! Scenario of the Week: Fruhlingswind

[Shep]

Here by public demand!

Post your AARs; your brilliant analysis; your wins and losses; confess your tactical sins and trumpet your genius.

[dalem]

SPOILER
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I took the Americans v. the AI and sent a rifle platoon supported by the Grant platoon in on a quick spoiling attack from the far forward American left. I left all other scenario default deployments alone, kept everything hidden but the ATG and HTs.

I walloped the Germans pretty hard until the group of PzIIIs ont he German far left got into position. I tried to pull back the lead (attacking) element and lost heavily withdrawing it. The rest was the Shermans and HTs getting lucky against the remaining 4 AI PzIIIs, pretty much an even exchange, with me ending up with one Sherman and two PzIIIs left when the AI surrendered. The AI infantry, basically sans panzer support, was butchered anywhere it poked forward. I got my attacking platoon pretty well shot up but the rest of the guys were fine.

-dale

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by dalem:
SPOILER
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I took Final score? ;)

[dalem]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
Final score? ;) Don't remember. It was pretty much in my favor though. All flags held, 19 AFV killed to 9 lost, light inf casualties.

-dale

[Shep]

This thread needs a big time spoiler alert.
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I also took the Americans vs. the AI, using the default setup for both sides, except I put both halftracks in the orchard next to the oasis.

I hunkered down with the 37 mm ATG on the American left, forward of the oasis, and waited the onslaught. First came infantry and a few paltry Armored Cars, which were dispatched without much ado. A couple of them lasted a few turns by juking.

When the German armor came, it came in droves, and here's what I noticed: RICHOCHETS GALORE. Shattering shells, richochets, and partial penetrations are the general story in this scenario. The Grants hold the line, and begin to win a war of attrition against the PZ IIIs.

In the mid-game, the German infantry has penetrated down the ravine, and are causing some trouble. My 37 MM in the middle is knocked out. 1 Grant takes 1 casualty and I wonder if they can take 2 casualties without abandoning ship. 7 guys in a tank! I remember when four was a crowd in a big M60A1, a monster by WW2 standards. I am also plinking the IIIMs enough to know that victory is looking good.

I send the Shermans up through the orchard, and they also engage the IIIMs with the same effect. A halftrack goes down, and I notice that they both seem to have a shoot & scoot mentality without my telling them. They don't like enemy armor even if they do have to shoot at them once in a while.

After a few turns, I lose a Grant. A hundred more ricochets happen, and then I decide to use the Shermans to roust the German infantry out of the ravine. They're pretty effective, but one Shermie gets immobilized and another takes a gun hit from a panzer. Both eventually abandon with full crews, thanks to the pesky proximity of the infantry and the still consistent tank fire.

Finally it ends. The map view shows one PZIIIM left out of the fifteen. I lose a smattering of infantry, a halftrack, an ATG, a Sherman, and a Grant. Major victory, Allies.

[Broken]

This is a fun little scenario, not in the least because it attempts to recreate the start of the Kasserine Pass battles. Not a very complicated game as the Germans against the AI, unless you are one of those who isn't satisfied unless you trounce the AI 90 to 10.

Evidently there is an AAR around here on a similar scenario from before the Demo release, but I didn't read it, so please excuse my ignorance. Having just read "An Army at Dawn" I expected the Americans to have M3 mediums, Stuarts, and halftrack TDs. The Shermans came as a bit of a surprise.

The map has three routes of approach for the German recon company, so I simply sent one platoon down each and kept the weapons platoon on the central rocky peak. I was going to wait until all the Panzer IIIs arrived before sending the light armor "over the top" but my impatience got the better of me, especially when the 75mm halftracks starting bothering my recon.

The halftracks died quick, but so did my light armor when the Ami tanks and AT guns opened up. The AT guns were taken care of by my 81mm mortar spotter and my Panzer IIIs crested the ridge for a gunnery duel with the Ami M3s and M4s at 800 meters.

Those Ami tanks are tough to kill with the long 50mms on the P IIIs at 800ms, so after blazing away for a few turns with little effect except for wasting all my T rounds, I charged my tanks forward for some close action at 200-300 meters. The P IIIs made mincemeat of the green US M3s at that range. The AI isn't very brilliant in that sort of action.

The Amis got some revenge by killing some M IIIs with their Shermans hiding in the orchard, but they all died too by turn 20. Then it was just a matter of running amuck against the Ami infantry. Watch out for the bazookas, another little surprise.

This is not a difficult scenario (at least as Germans), but it is good armored mayhem. I got a 66-34 score despite a number of bone-headed decisions and sloppiness. The armor combat simulation is quite different from the CMBO experience with the same tanks, so this game is a good one to learn the differences.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Broken:
. . . snip . . .I was going to wait until all the Panzer IIIs arrived before sending the light armor "over the top" but my impatience got the better of me, especially when the 75mm halftracks starting bothering my recon. . . . snip . . .This too was my first battle to play. I went as Axis also because defending against the AI can sometimes be more entertaining than challenging {especially in open terrain}.

I followed the same route, except I waited for all my tanks to show up. So I crested all 15 Mark III's in the same turn. The Ami's five grants had camped the small building flag up to that point so I called in my 81mm barrage to hit the turn before I crested.

It worked perfectly. The grants were not happy with the pesky mortar fire so they turned to move away. So just as my Mark III's crest, they are perfectly broadside to my approach. They got off a few shots, but all five of them where knocked out in that one turn.

This whole time my infantry was moving up through the ravine and my left flank {nive cover for both}. I was surprised that the light AT guns opened up on the infantry, but I was not one to complain about it. My MG's in the rocks gave suppressing fire just fine.

Then came the interesting part. The shermans. I too was not expecting any shermans to show up and they held their own for some time against my Mark III's. But immobilization got to most of them and the others were picked off later. It was especially interesting to have dust kicked up both from firing and from near misses. Nice effect both for gameplay and eye candy.

To end my long story, once the grants, shermans, and 37's were out of the picture, I moved my remaining 14 (I lost one to a sherman) Mark III's up with infantry following. It was a sad sight from then on. Infantry in the desert have no defense against massed armor.

I really enjoyed this scenario and it seemed nicely balanced. Would make for a good PBEM. Yet, I liked the other one better, especially with attacking as the Ami's. I miss my shermans and greyhounds. I just hope rarity factor doesnt make the M8HMC too expensive! smile.gif

Chad

[GreenAsJade]

I was mostly interested to see the multi-turrets do their stuff, without really spoiling the scenario for when I get an opponent.

So - I took the allies and just hit "go" and "play" all the time.

It appeared I was gonna whip the AI Axis just doing this!

I got past where I get the first reinforcements, and a group of Panzers appeared and all got popped off... I was starting to get interested in seeing if I could win using the "do nothing" tactic, but it was past midnight, so this test is still waiting there for someone...

[laxx]

most entertaining.

i won't go into what i did here or what route i took, safe to say, it doesn't deviate from the earlier posts here, what is interesting are the new stuff i noticed:

- troop movements in the open desert is quite hazardous! i had to creep/sneak my men among the bushes. What is tough is trying to position my HMGs/off board motars.

- richochet city. alot less first time fatal penetration, but alot of non-damage hits. At first I thought the allies had crack tank platoons, but i found out they were just green/regulars.

- M3 Grants die like fruit flies up close whilst the ATG in the trench took forever to kill. I reserve my comments on shermans *eyes rolled up*

- my pow amerikans surrendered then in the next turn tried to run away, got caught and promptly surrendered agains. *sneaky*

- dust storms is a nice touch, yet to read up on their effects on concealment.

overall, this scenario is bigger than CMBB tutorial, somewhat smaller than CMBO Chance Encounter but alot of skills needed than CE.

Yes, I promptly pre-ordered the game smile.gif

[ November 21, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[kingjames]

I never had cmbb, so this was almost total shock to system. I took the americans and ended up with total victory I think.. I know I had 30 casualties, and 1 halftrack, 1 sherman, and 1 grant knocked out. Oh yea and one AT gun. I took 7 prisoners, (I did see one infantry squad that were marked captured get wiped out in the next round) We caused 257 casualties, and knocked out 19 vehicles.. At the end we had 242 men ok and the germans had 100. And here I thought I was a genius for deploying my men foward. I think it comes down to the A1 is going to make you look like a genius.

[Thin Red Line]

I wonder if my 20mm HTs are able to take out this US HT with a gun.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Hah, I finally managed to get good service from my 20mm HT. I sneaked one behind the hill, the other two died on the way despite my MkIIIMs cresting way on the other side. The Lees got interested in chipping in against the IIIs after they overran the American left and destroyed two Shermans. So the HT hunts around the hill but unfortunately faces a Lee head on. It's guns adjust for range, I prepare for my HT to die as it bounces a round of the Lees front. POW! A shell from a IIIM takes out and sets on fire the offending Lee. My HT hunts further and catches a Lee side on. It fires two rounds into it's side. But then the 37mm turret swings round. Another tungsten round penetrates the Lee. The Lee fires, it hits... and my HT takes the round like a trooper! WOOT! The Lee tries to move out but another round penetrates side armour. It's dead, I thought, but the 37mm takes aim again and I'm thinking, I'm not that lucky again. But my HT gets it's shot out first. KABLOOIE! A catastrophic hit blows the Lee to bits. I was so proud of my little HT. It went on to take out the last Sherman hiding in the orchard from the rear with three shots without the Sherman ever responding.
Sometimes you just know you are going to forever remember a vehicle crew. Wassisname.

[Nippy]

I tried it once as the Americans and got my ass kicked. :mad:

I played line of defence a few times and came to this conclusion: American tanks need to hold platoon formation. 4 up front in a line with the HQ tank a bit to the rear.

So I gave it another go and did it a lot better this time. I lost 4 Grants (only HQ was alive) and 1 Sherman to the enemies 26 dead vehicles.

I left the grants where they were and when the Shermans showed up, I moved them in one huge line to the edge of the orchard. The German tanks would face the Shermans, exposing their soft sides to the 37mms of the Grants. Some other interesting things were:

- Burn baby burn! I had most of the map on fire by the end of the battle. Huge patches of fire started blocking LOS a lot

- Hiding tanks seems to work much better now. A M3HT hidden in the orchard got the drop on the 222s out in the open. The other M3HT used the Mosque as cover to shoot and scoot, and managed to bag a few PZIIIs.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:
I wonder if my 20mm HTs are able to take out this US HT with a gun. One of 'em nailed both my HTs with shots from the front. Those HTs are eggs with hammers, and not very big hammers at that. No wonder the Army dropped them as quickly as they could. No matter what deficits the M10 suffered from, it was definitely a big step up from the M3 GMC.

:(

Michael

[Shep]

What not to do. If I get whupped by the AI using a strategy, it seems safe to say it won't work against a reasonably competent human being.

I put the Grant platoon forward.

(waits for laughter to die down).

I put them in front of their default position, right next to the berm there and out of sight of the enemy. I wanted to try shoot & scoot with them, hoping to get some flank shots against the panzers in the middle.

Instead, here's what happened:
1) The Shermans hunted through the orchard, and then learned about massed fire. The rate of fire, and the massed fire of 15 tanks knocked out two, gun killed one, and broke and panicked the other two.
2) Round one of shoot & scoot... green tank crews sure do dawdle. They roll up, shoot, miss, and roll back. A couple of panzer crews raise their eyebrows. The GE recon infantry gets shot up because they were almost to the lip of the berm. The Grant MGs do indeed work.
3) Realizing that green crews aren't going to get a lot of first shot hits, I make it a mass hunt command... The command tank runs up and collects all the attention, and before he realizes his command delay is shorter than the green guys, he notices his tank is letting in a lot of daylight and his crew is leaking their vital fluids. The other green tanks are overwhelmed in the next two turns without getting a single kill.

The sole highlight from then on was a bazooka getting a first shot kill from 120 meters. Evidently the guy should have gone to sniper school. After the great shot, he became the nexus of many, many yellow lines, and poof!

Both flags got overrun, although the Germans took about 100 infantry casualties. Minor victory, Germans. 59-41, I think.

The Grants and Shermans need to keep the engagement range at long, and be willing to win an attrition war.

Any other innovations? Successful innovations?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

You could always try what i did, deploy the Grants as far forwar on your left and fast move them over the ridge. Let your 37mm and HT deal with the ACs and HT that crest the ridge. The Grants meanwhile hug the far edge and wait for the panzers to show up. The first ones die whitout ever having a chance. Only the ones that deploy on the German left escape this slaughter...if I hadn't rushed my Sherman as fast as they can, out of formation. 22-0 in the vehicle department. Lost one 37mm AT gun to a lame arty attack.
Gamey as heck but I am a great believer in kicking people when they are down.

[Breakthrough]

I was so impressed with Scenario @ 1 I wrote this haiku..

'The Axis is bad'

'The Allies are good'

'I sure held the crossroads,

'at Sidi bel Zoud'

Good huh? :cool:

[General Bolt]

Spoiler
I took the Americans because I wanted to see the M3 use their two guns.
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At the set up I placed the platoon that was by the southern flag, on the ridge just on the first right on the east side of the SidiBouZid road. I did leave the MG in the building (Doh-I didn’t see it). I positioned all 5 M3s just behind that platoon.

My plan: Hang out letting the AI advance.

The AT guns and the HTs took out most of the ACs and German HTs. As AI advanced his inf towards the platoon at the north, my troops were able to suppress the Ger advance. When the Shermans showed up I positioned them in the date grove. They did a fine job as the PzIIIs were committed piecemeal in to the battle. Two Shermans and one HTs were lost with 7 PzIII being neutralized.

The recon company of inftary did advance on the platoon I had moved forward. The M3s were able to break up that attack. AI then advanced 3 PzIIIs down the southern edge of the map and two more on the low side of that southern ridge. Again the sprinkling of his tanks allowed my M3s to reverse facing several times to eliminate this threat. In this action two M3s were lost. Both of these were killed by 2 more PzIII sitting off on the southeatern hill.
With 2 german tanks and 6 US tanks remaining I charged all remaining tanks and routed most of the Ger Inf. One more M3 was lost taking out the final 2 German tanks.
Bottom line: AI is still pretty bad while attacking, and watching both guns on the Grants fire was pretty cool. The other thing I noticed was burning bushes. There were 4 major brush fires going by the time the game ended. Three were started by mortar fire(on and off board) one was started by a burning tank. Dust is great.
As was previouslt reported on another thread, I also saw how the smoke from burning tanks start out slowly and build for 30 seconds or so.

I’m really glad to be playing using the Americans again. smile.gif

[Tank Ace]

Ok I first played as americans and found it too easy to domniate the field by just staying back and shooting inf and pnzIII. then i played as jerrys. I found a weak point in the AIs line and exploited it with tanks and infantry. In the end all allied tanks destoryed, 2 axis tanks left. Even though it was a draw it felt like a huge victory to me. I sent 10 tanks down this weak point and made it too some cover. on the other flank i sent 5 tanks and the personal cars charging at grants and shermans. the apcs were used as decoys for me to get my panzers behind a ridge and pick of the tanks one by one using about 3 tanks against 1 grant. Well it worked i lost 3 tanks from those 5 and preceded to follow the ridge and then knocked out a sherman and 2 grants. with my 2 tanks remaining, the AI made a wrong move with his last tank and got his gun damaged. then inf moved in and threw a grenade bundle and the tank was gone. the 10 tanks i sent at "the weak point" were to move quickly to attack "the weak point". i sent 5 in the open and 5 in a gulley. 5 tanks ran over an at gun and knocked it out, then the inf came in and got the heck shot at them from grants. the halftracks were sent in as decoys and managed to take out a gmc. then 3 tanks "hunted" to a killing spot and knocked out 1 sherman. then i lost 1 . then the other one was taken out a short time later. with i used every weapon avaiable to decieve and fight the enemy. All I have to say is, that is one the coolest scenarios i've ever played.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Breakthrough:
I was so impressed with Scenario @ 1 I wrote this haiku..

'The Axis is bad'

'The Allies are good'

'I sure held the crossroads,

'at Sidi bel Zoud'

Good huh? :cool: After Breakthrough wrote his haiku,
I just didn't quite know what to do,
So I hemmed, and I hawwed,
As to the bathroom I trod,
His hard copy was handy in the loo...

[Michael Emrys]

When Dorosh tries to write poetry
He really falls out of his tree
He lands on his head
In a dank flower bed
Then totters on off to have tea

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Why has no one reviewed this one at the depot yet?

The scenario I mean, not the poetry/limericks/haiku?

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

spoiler (althogh by now everybody has played this one)
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First try was axis, and ended in a massacre/draw. I tried a long distance tank battle hoping for the effect of better geman targetting and that the green american tank troops would chicken out like their russian counterparts in CMBB. this was not the case. when i played the americans I was able to confirm this. my green sherman crews happily blasted away although they were being targetted and hit by several PzIIIs.
my second try as axis ended in total victory, as I remembered to use smoke screens. I also raced forward to take out the grants quickly before the shermans arrived. i then hid my PzIIIs behind the house and waited until the AI made its usual mistake of sending out its tanks piecemeal (out of the orchard).
playing the americans is fairly easy and if I hadnt stupidly left my grants out in the open (in stead of hiding them in the orchard with the shermans)a total victory would have been possible.

[Shep]

I've review Fruhlingswind at the Depot. Someone else chime in now too.

By the way, has anyone used German HE artillery as the equivalent of smoke? It seems that HE fire can be dual purpose now. Chew up a lot of dust and use it just like a smokescreen...

[PeterX]

*****SPOILER*****


You could always try what i did, deploy the Grants as far forwar on your left and fast move them over the ridge. Ye, Elmar, you hit the nail on the proverbial head. Due to the shallow map and generous setup zone, the Amis can deploy the Grant platoon forward, Fast Move into the German zone, blast away for 4 turns, then reverse out of harm's way as the panzers start arriving. You may lose 1 Grant if you're unlucky.

I tried this out againt the AI and destroyed all the German HTs and 3 of the PSWs + 70 casualties. The tactic, I'm afraid, would work equally as well against a human.

Thus this scenario, as it stands is FUBAR. For PBEM you'd need to establish a Gentleman's Agreement. The simple solution is to contract the American setup zone but there's no editor. I understand that BFC had to shrink the maps to alleviate the download but the testers should have caught this.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:
I was mostly interested to see the multi-turrets do their stuff, without really spoiling the scenario for when I get an opponent.

So - I took the allies and just hit "go" and "play" all the time.

It appeared I was gonna whip the AI Axis just doing this!

I got past where I get the first reinforcements, and a group of Panzers appeared and all got popped off... I was starting to get interested in seeing if I could win using the "do nothing" tactic, but it was past midnight, so this test is still waiting there for someone... That is what I did, all the way to the end. The only intervention I had was occasionally targeting the FO (the only Allied unit that will not take opportunity fire.

Major Allied Victory -- lost four tanks and a halftrack; destroyed all but five German tanks.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Shep:
I've review Fruhlingswind at the Depot. Someone else chime in now too.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=002706#000000

I've started a thread in the Scenario Forum re: the rating system at the Depot; Id' really like to see this fixed. Given the comments here about Frühlingswind, I think a new system might better encapsulate some of the comments here.

[PeterX]

That is what I did, all the way to the end. The only intervention I had was occasionally targeting the FO (the only Allied unit that will not take opportunity fire.
I think this is pretty transparently a player-vs-Allied AI scenario even if not designated as such. There are only a handful of- artfully crafted- scenarios out there where the computer will be a threat on offense. This is true in BO and BB, as well. You already knew that, deep down, right?

That said, given that we'll be living with this thing for another couple of weeks, I request, no I demand, that Rune release an amended version with proper setup zones. tongue.gif

[Michael Emrys]

If he does, he ought to correct some spelling mistakes. The most jarring one is the map label that misspells 'Sbeitla'. It's an 'l', Rune, not a 'k'. I noticed a couple of misspelled words in the Allied briefing too, but 'Sbeitla' is the biggie.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:
If he does, he ought to correct some spelling mistakes. The most jarring one is the map label that misspells 'Sbeitla'. It's an 'l', Rune, not a 'k'. I noticed a couple of misspelled words in the Allied briefing too, but 'Sbeitla' is the biggie.

Michael I caught a couple of very, very minor ones in the Line of Defence briefing also when I was retyping it for CMBO the other night.

[rune]

The editors overall did a good job. I am sure things were missed here and there, but overall they did rather well and have my thanks.

Demand a fix? Sure...I have an open date of 2037. Hold your breath till then. As for the testers not catching gamey play, you cannot protect a scenario after the player has seen it from everything they could possibally do. If you can't make a gentlemen's agreement, find someone else to play.

For GreenasJade. The battle was marked semi-historical for a good reason, in the real battle the Americans were not aware the Germans were advancing untill the Grants began to explode as the crews were having breakfast. We cannot de-crew tanks, but it was the reason I put in the historical outcome. Also, I get more requests for knowing what happened then just about any other thing. If you don't want to know, don't read it. Last, the briefing was correct. The Americans did not know the Germans were on the way. There is a scenario on the CD where the Allied commander was given the order to "Go up there a pull a Stonewall Jackson" and that was it. Briefings should be a mix between accurate and not so accurate information, depending on what really happened.

Rune

[PeterX]

Demand a fix? Sure...I have an open date of 2037. Hey! I spent good money on this demo!

You scenarists are a tetchy bunch.

[Treeburst155]

Let's see now...we want to simulate a surprise attack on the Americans even though the American player knows an attack is coming. Hmmm....

1)Start the American tanks as reinforcements arriving on turn 1 and/or 2. Alternatively, lock the American armor in positions near the road they are supposed to be defending.

2)Start the German armor at setup.

3)Make the non-armor Americans less than fit, or simply start them tired.

[rune]

Hmm guess I never made a scenario before. The germans lead with the scouts, and hit them early. So rules out the reinforcement for the grants, kinda hard to catch them by suirprise if they aren't on the map. Germans led with scouts as I said, so much for starting with tanks on board, and since the tanks are green, making them fatiqued or anything else would make them useless. Wanted to have the Americans a chance at winning. Since it is a demo, and people would want to play different ways and different strategies, there was no way I was going to lock a unit. Maybe someone wanted to play as Germans with a wide awake Allied defense. Not going to restrict play on a demo.

It is a DEMO scenario guys, something to show you the cool things comming. I had restrictions I had to work with to fit it in with another scenario and keep the number of vehicles down, then size down, and still keep it fun. Second guess me all day long, but the majority of feedback has been positive, enjoying the demo for what it is.

Rune

[JonS]

Originally posted by rune:
... I get more requests for knowing what happened then just about any other thing. If you don't want to know, don't read it. ...I like the idea of an "Aftermath" briefing, but FOW issues are obviously a problem.

One possible solution is, when writing it, to press return enough times so that it flicks over onto a new page when reading it in-game, and put a hefty warning in there. It would have to be in the side specific briefings, otherwise you would have to scroll past it while reviewing the briefings in-game.

Of course, there would be nothing other than your own self-discipline to prevent you reading it, but it might be better than nothing.

Regards
JonS

[ November 25, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Ligur]

The first time out as the Axis I got massacred as my Panzers were unable to score but a single kill before getting wiped out, one by one, in long range combat. Most of my shots missed, while the Ami green crews showed excellent gunnery skills and usually knocked out a visible PZIII on the first shot. I was amazed. As I made sure I had more guns pointing their way than they my way every time I engaged I didn't imagine such a poor result.

Having learned from this, I concentrated all my Panzers on the left flank and used my artillery to knock out the Ami halftracks and guns. My armored cars just zipped around creating dust clouds and drawing shots here and there. I used a ridge and a smoke screen to close in the small house on the left flank, and popped up with 12 PZIII's simultaneously. I was facing two Ami Grants with my tanks, both under 200 meters, during the first minute. 1 to 6 odds, sounds good.

Guess what?

I wasn't even able to hit them despite firing stationary.

The Amis threw in two more Grants the next turn, one more the turn after that, and slaughtered my veteran crews while my own gunners were unable to hit anything. Some ricochets were my only reward during the first minutes of the fight. They shot a LOT but to no effect. I threw the remaining two PZIII's from the third platoon in the fray, started hitting the lumbering Ami tanks more often and was eventually able to knock them out (one took 6 clean close range penetrations before coming to a halt and even shot once after the last of the six penetrations to kill one my my tanks; another one took well over 10 hits to all sides before the crew decided to bail) but had only the last two PZIII's survive the fight, and now had to face the fresh Shermans from 500+ meters... Having been unable to hit from that range previously I didn't bother and surrendered.

Someone posted the Grants were a piece of cake from close range, in my case they clearly were anything but. Bad luck I guess, well, such is war. And wargames.

EDIT:

I tried again, loading from the position just when I was crossing the ridge to the Ami right flank (with the single small house and flag) and about to open fire with 12 panzers. Won 80/20, with only 3 PZIII casualties. I didn't do anything differently as far as I can tell. Took 65 POWs and 170+ Amis listed as casualties to about 30 of mine. Who knows.

[ November 25, 2003, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ]

[Terence]

When incoherent alone won't do the job, you need surly and incoherent. tongue.gif

[Fluf]

SPOILER
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I took Axis for this one because I like the looks of the panzerIIIM. Preliminary eye level check of the ground revealed the central ravine. I sent all but two platoons of infantry up this ravine as they arrived. First went two recon platoons and two armoured cars. The other two armoured cars I used to shoot-scoot in the center, but they both took turret casualties right away. The three half-tracks tried it on the right and I lost one.
These losses did reveal the presence of Grants and
several light AT guns.

I placed 105mm FO, 81mm FO and a heavy mg in the central rocky patch on the ridge. The 81mm fired
at the positions in the vicinity of the church yard, while my recon infantry with armoured car support emerged at the far end of the ravine and engaged infantry and AT positions in front of the oasis. An armoured car moved toward the church but was knocked out by a side shot and rolled up on top of the berm. The other took a turret casualty and hide in the ravine.

I sent one platoon of PnzIIIs up the ravine with the above mentioned infantry, one platoon with their infantry passengers to the right, and one to the left. I planned (and executed) a 105mm smoke program in the center of the map to mask the Grants followed by a fast tank assault on the right with infantry follow up, while the PnzIIIs on the left tried going hull down to distract the Grants while the central PnzIIIs got into position to pop up along the berm in front of the church.

I lost one PnzIII on the left to long range Sherman tank fire comming from the vicinity of the oasis. I had to then use shoot/scoot with the remainder of that platoon.

As the 105mm smoke arrived the attack on the right went in with a tank charge right up to the enemy foxhole area and succeeded in tying up the defences well enough to allow the infantry to work there way in and overrun the area with the aid of the 2 remaining halftracks. The infantry emerging from the ravine also contributed flanking fire on these positions. But M4s cleverly ducking in and out of the palm trees ahead started plinking this tank platoon, and I eventually lost 3 PnzIIIs to them.

As the infantry positions on the right were overrun the central attack was ready to go in, although one PnzIII was bogged back in the ravine. The 4 remaining tanks took hull-down positions on the berm across the front of the church area and their sudden appearance caused great confusion amongst the Grants. The PnzIIIs on the left now came to hull down positions so that the Grants were caught in a cross-fire, and were all destroyed within 2 minutes, along with a halftrack. Several of my panzers sustained crew casualties. Two burning vehicles set massive brush fires in the US positions.

Next, while the central and right panzers played cat-mouse duels with some Shermans emerging from the palm trees near the church rear, the panzers on the left charged down to take up positions along the berm fronting the flag on the left. The two Shermans near the church succumbed to massed fire, while knocking out one of my panzers.

Meanwhile I had been preparing a central infantry advance based on the berm near the church. Two heavy mgs were established there now, and I began moving platoons forward as the left and central tank platoons closed in on the stone walls. On the left I charged the four tanks forward and split the platoon, turning two left to engage the infantry positions from close range at the left flag, and the other two turned right to flank the churchyard and penetrate into the stone walled area. The enemy infantry on the left were unlucky with their bazooka, and withdrew or surrendered within 4 minutes or so, leaving this flag in my hands.

In the center the flanking armour attack combined with intense pressure from the front caved in the positions near the church and as my infantry got in amongst the gravestones and assaulted the church building the enemy who hadn't withdrawn were taken prisoner.

Finally, as the infantry closed in on the church the central PnzIII platoon (4 tanks) crossed the front of the church and attacked through the palm tree grove to deal with the remainder of the sherman platoon which was still engaged with the two remaining tanks of my right hand platoon. My haste here cost me my platoon leader as his tank came suddenly upon a retreating sherman, who won the draw on him at close range. This sherman was quickly taken out by the wingman, and a last sherman withdrew off the map before anyone could get away a round.

The enemy surrendered at this point. The win level was at 74%, with my losses being an armoured car and halftrack (plus casualties in 3 others), and 5 PnzIIIs (not counting the bogged tank) plus casualties in 3 other tanks. Infantry casualties were about 34. The enemy lost all but one vehicle (the sherman, with a damaged gun), their AT guns and mortars, about 60 prisoners and over 100 infantry casualties.

The final position looked grim, with three big brush fires burning and the black plumes of several brewed up tanks hanging over the crater-pocked battlefield. A very intense and sobering engagement.
It appears that the Sherman has a small advantage over the PanzerIIIM, and the match-up was very interesting.
Since this is my first AAR I hope you will forgive the clumsy writing.

[Ligur]

Originally posted by Terence:
When incoherent alone won't do the job, you need surly and incoherent. tongue.gif Thanks for the tip. Include "frigging" and "bummer" with some "goddamn hell" supported by "bloody incompetent ****nugget" at least once in every sentence of my incoherent AAR rant.

I think my already suffering brain misfired a synapse or two after the touted veteran übergermans were taken out by outnumbered US tanks so easily.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by rune:
It is a DEMO scenario guys, something to show you the cool things comming.And that's how I've always taken them. I'm not one to play a demo to death. In fact, it's kind of unusual for me to play one all the way through. I much prefer designing my own battles.

I guess that's why I wasn't grieved over the BB demos. I thought the Kursk one was really kind of cool and I never got around to playing the Yelnia one.

Like you say, Rune, it's just a way of becoming familar with the mechanics and "other cool stuff".

smile.gif

Michael

[Shep]

"...it's just a way of becoming familar with the mechanics and "other cool stuff" And this thread is just a warmup, basic training for the real scenarios. But it's been a really good trainup so far. Plenty of good AARs, and some cogent analysis.

[Ligur]

Hey rune, as usual your scenario was good, forgot to say that. I think it was a good show. I remember us talking about building terrain somewhere in the past and you've improved on that department ;) j/k your scenarios have always been great, especially when CM:BB finally started supporting your style of making maps that are a bit on the vast side more often then not.

[rune]

You ain't seen nothing yet. There is one scenario historical on the CD that is massive in size and scale. Warning in the briefing it takes a lot of time to process per turn, don't attempt it unless you have a fast computer. Sunday of the Dead features New Zealanders, South Africans, and the British vs the Germans at Sidi Rezegh. The map is huge, and massive forces that were at the battle.

Made some smaller ones too. smile.gif My son has 2 on the CD, and both are rather well made. Not bad for a 14 year old.

The designers did wonders with the scenarios, and we even got Wild Bill back! My thanks go to all who made scenarios for the CD, you will recognize the names, you have seen their work before.

Rune

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by rune:
Made some smaller ones too. smile.gif My son has 2 on the CD, and both are rather well made. Not bad for a 14 year old.Nepotism!

:eek:

Michael

[rune]

Want me to adopt ya? smile.gif

Rune

[Michael Emrys]

Would you support me in the style to which I'd like to become accustomed?

Michael

[rune]

Since yopu are Famine, sure, I could starve ya to death. No, death is Andreas...well, I could starve ya anyway. smile.gif

Rune

[Max BrauHaus]

Re: Placing historical outcome in the Scenario briefings

I am all for this with the current structure. However, when CM2 comes out, I'd like to see scenarios designers have the option of adding a AAR briefing, if you will, that would display along with the AAR results screen. This would be the perfect place to include the historical outcome, and you could compare your results to the historical.

[Publius Cornelius Patton]

The last time I played this scenario, I played as the Allies, with 200% more forces than usual.

My main strategy was to put two M3 platoons on the high ridge on the left, and keep the two-three halftracks on the left in the orchard.

The Grants on the high ridge wqas a very good choice. They kept the German halftracks and the armored cars at bay, even the Panzers kept behind the ridges.

When I got the Shermans, I moved them across the left, where they massacred the Panzers, then across the map to the right, where they finished off the Shermans.

Result: Major Allied Victory
Axis
Men OK: 84
Casualties: 229
KIA: 69
Captured: 52
Vehicles Destroyed: 22
Final Score: 24%
Allies
Men OK: 687
Casualties: 50
KIA: 10
Guns Destroyed: 2
Vehicles Destroyed: 9
Final Score: 76%

MVP of the Battle:
Sgt. Wolfgang and his M4A1 Sherman
25 infantry casualties caused
1 infantry captured
3 Panzer IIIMs killed
1 PSW 222 killed

God bless,

Publius Cornelius Patton

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by rune:
Since yopu are Famine, sure, I could starve ya to death. No, death is Andreas...well, I could starve ya anyway. smile.gif Since you have been working hard churning out scenarios, I will forgive you for being so out of touch. First of all, Berli is Death. Andreas is War.

Secondly, Famine always eats well. It is others whom I starve.

Famine

[ November 26, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Urban Shocker]

I played this one after reading the many AAR's written here. So taking the Germans I vowed to use my perfect intel to achieve total victory while preserving my force as best as is possible.

My initial unoriginal idea was to feed a platoon with HMG into and through the central ravine. Then follow them with another platoon and do a bounding overwatch type movement. The thin-skinned vehicles (skinnies) would shoot and scoot in an attempt to reveal enemy guns and tanks without being destroyed.

When the Mark III's came on board I would send the two platoons with infantry on board on a dash into the brush covered valley behind the berms on the left (south) side of the map. The other platoon would shoot and scoot in flanking areas. All vehicles not making the rush would shoot and scoot to draw attention away from the the big dust cloud on the left.

After this it would be a matter of cresting all Mark III's simultaneously in hull down positions to overwhelm the Americans. Defeat the tanks then mop up the infantry with my tanks and infantry.

The battle:
Infantry - The lead platoon advances into the central gully. The HMG being slower and not able to "advance" gets pinned by M3 and 75 mm halftrack fire. They finally make it down the slope to join their platoon which then gets hit by an arty barrage which injures 7 men. While casualties were sustained the American ammo expenditure was not worth it which would haunt them later. All other infantry is still safely behind the eastern berm.

AFV's - My shoot and scoot idea while appearing theoretically sound was a practical failure. Only veteran units do it to my liking as anything less dallies to long trying to target and eventually gets brewed. While I did reveal the location of the American tanks all of my thin skinned AFV's were destroyed (5) or gun damaged (2). In CM (like real life) these things (skinnies) probably do best in a battle situation in mopping up infantry.

Early analysis:

I like that I know where the American tanks and 1 halftrack are located. The tanks are in the orchard area and the halftrack is right in the geographic center of the map. This mean there are no tanks at the SW flag so if I can get my MkIII's in position I should be able to cut off armor support for that corner. Losing my skinnies was irritating given my initial goals but that's the way it goes sometimes. My initial infantry losses were not bad. I have also taken to heart the observations that infantry in the desert are vulnerable and will not reveal most of mine until the end.

MkIII Arrival - I position the infantry loaded MkIII's behind the SE berm and the other MkIII platoon is in the center. The center starts shooting and scooting. In the spirit of Rommel I use the gun damaged skinnies in a move-and-reverse fashion in an attempt to confuse and draw fire. After a couple of turns I move the center MkIII's to the right flank in order to get the M3's turned away from the left where the mad dash will occur shortly.

I dash the infantry-laden MkIII's one platoon at a time into the southern valley. Both platoons with infantry intact make it even though the American tanks get a few shots off. The infantry disembarks with one platoon behind the berm facing the SW flag and the other behind the berm facing the W flag on the big building.

The "fun" begins - Over the next 10-15 turns the armor battle is fought. The Americans have all of their armor and AT guns in the orchard area. I have two platoons of MkIIIs behind the SW berms (close) and a platoon on the right (NE)flank (far). So I can get some of the tanks with flanking fire. The tank battle roars on as I move tanks into hull down positions. The Americans are playing shoot and scoot. Some of the allied tanks "boldly" approach my NE MkIIIs and then turn their flank to them as they decide to face the SW MkIIIs. They are promptly dispatched as are the halftracks. As time goes on the American tanks take more losses and retreat into the orchard. The final tank fight revolves around my NE MkIIIs and the American tanks between the orchard and the oasis. During this tank battle the AT guns located in the orchard and oasis were dealt with by arty although it did take tank fire to finally subdue the AT gun in the oasis. I used all of my arty on AT guns and only got one! It did keep their heads down, though. Ultimately, all of the American tanks were destroyed or abandoned while I lost two MkIIIs.

End Game (ca. turn 25 to the end) - Objective one was to take the SW flag so I fast-moved my four remaining MkIIIs down the berm and into a depression S of the flag. As they got near the building various infantry postions were exposed and suppressed by point blank fire. If there was a bazooka present it didn't get a shot off. After a couple minutes of point-blank tank fire I advanced an infantry platoon to mop up the mess. One MkIII captured the entire Company HQ (10 men) while the other guys shouted "Get out here or they'll kill us all" which unfortunately turned out to be true as they did run and the tanks and infantry mercilessly mowed them down. They should have followed their leadership's example. ;)

The other central MkIII platoon slowly moved towards the large flag with all 5 tanks. The infantry hung back until the Americans were on the run and then the infantry advanced.

At some point during this part of the game I started moving my other infantry from way back in the start zone into the north central brushy area. They gingerly moved foward but since the tanks had flushed, flouted, and fleeced the enemy infantry in hindsight my infantry advance was overcautious.

The NE MkIIIs moved forward less their veteran HQ tank as it had been hit and 4 of the 5 crew memebers injured or killed. These tanks basically keep any remaining American tanks focused on them rather than what was going on south of them. These MkIIIs expended a lot of AP ammo as three of the four were in single digit loadouts at the end of the game. They bounced a lot of AP off of Sherman tanks.

The end result was a major victory. My tired infantry were in the cemetary but not in the large building at the end. My overcautious movement resulted in too much advancing at the end and tuckered the poor fellas out. I did take the SW flag and those MkIIIs moved parallel to the road along the W edge of the map engaging targets of opportunity.

The plan worked pretty well as the Americans chose not to deploy any tanks at the SW flag so were literally cornered in the NW (orchard). They did try several times to get tanks to the SW but had to run a gauntlet of 9-10 MkIIIs and were either killed or had to retreat.

I thoroughly enjoyed this scenario. I wore my headphones and had the volume up loud to really get into it! One thought I had on the map in an AI vs. human match-up is that if it was extended 0.5-1 km south and the Americans received armor reinforcement around turns 15-20 at the southeast end of the map (from Sidi Bou Zid ) it would have really created some difficulties as my panzers behind the south and central berms would have been exposed to flanking fire without protection. Add a little berm to the south end and the Americans could flank from hull down positions...YIKES!

[Falcon988]

I played this scenario TCP/IP with my usual Combat Mission opponent. He took the Axis side and it was a real good show. All settings and the set up were on default.

Where to begin? The Axis brought down their 105mm's on 3rd Platoon positioned near the Company HQ to the right of the Orchard. The first 105 of the battle killed a member of the Company HQ.

Afterwards 3rd Platoon's M3 Halftrack engaged the German PSW Armored Cars & Halftracks as they came in range, but was hit and exploded. The explosion killed one member of the crew and must've severely burnt the rest. Not only that but Sergeant Lane, 3rd Platoon, had his foxhole right next to the M3 when it blew up and one of his men got hit. They went into a panic and ran off. So things weren't going well :)

Lt. Bozak's 2nd Platoon was holding on the far left north of the Orchard. I had a Halftrack & Grant stationed over there to support him & his men. The Germans assaulted through their sector unfortunately and we lost the Halftrack. What the Axis did not see however were the two AT guns I had hiding; Corporal Corrales with 2nd Platoon and Corporal Berger waaay back with 3rd Platoon at the Company Headquarters. When the PSW's came into sight they were promptly struck down by AT Guns and Grants.

2 Platoon was then hit by 81mm mortars and suffered its first couple of casualties. They also defended against a small infantry attack that was beaten off with the help of Sgt. Warner's Grant. All in all they had the highest casualties of the battle (although they were still relatively light).

My Shermans showed up just in time to help me deal with the Panzer III's. I was quite sure I was going to get overrun since I was -very- outnumbered tank wise and had already lost one Grant (Sgt. Jack's) near the Orchard a few turns earlier. Still there was nothing for it and I set up a nice defensive line.

Sgt. Warner's Grant supported 2nd Platoon north of the Orchard. Sgt's Arabian and Orton moved their M4A1's north just ahead of the Orchard and engaged Panzer III's from there. The Grant CO Lt. Hamel and his comrade Sgt. Jenner would fight with 4th Platoon on the road to Sidi Bou Zid. Sgt. Rouselle's Grant and MacGonigal's M4A1 would fight a little ways down the road from them while the Sherman CO Lt. Edison & Sgt. Sablove fought on the road behind Company HQ & 3rd Platoon.

So that was my tank defense against the onslaught of Panzer III's. Essentially I had them all over the front. Here's what happened.

The Axis Panzers engaged us from long range and a very long tank battle ensued. We had them in a crossfire, and he lost a few Panzers very early on. My tanks fought -very- bravely and skillfully to the end. At 4th Platoon's position Lt. Hamel and Sgt. Jenner's Grants were both hit after putting up a fierce fight and downing several Panzers. Sgt's Rouselle, Sablove, and Orton were also knocked out. All crews made it out of their vehicles safely. For those losses though we destroyed the entire Panzer force save for one or two tanks.

At that point the Germans were getting desperate so they sent infantry & a Panzer III to attack 2nd Platoon again. Cpl Caldwell's two man bazooka team was killed by enemy fire while they lay in their foxholes trying to keep their heads down. But with the armored superiority I had I was able to use Sgt. Warner's Grant and Sgt. Arabian's Sherman to destroy the Panzer and shoot up the infantry.

Simultaneously a platoon of Germans attacked 4th Platoon through open ground, but the story was pretty much the same. With the Shermans support 4th Platoon beat them off and only suffered minor casualties. A stronger attack hit 3rd Platoon as the Germans used a ravine to cover their movements and then attacked in force. But they were mowed down as well.

At the end of the battle the last remaining Panzer III mounted what looked like a suicide attack. He rolled full speed towards 4th Platoon. Sgt. Atak's squad, seeing a fully laden Panzer III charging at them, ran away without suffering any casualties or even being fired upon. The Panzer was destroyed by a Sherman, and the entire German crew captured. Afterwards the surviving Germans surrendered, and I won a total victory.

The Germans lost 38 killed, 102 wounded, 225 captured, and 22 vehicles.

My casualties were 7 killed, 26 wounded, and 8 vehicles destroyed.

It was a great battle. I had a good time. Line of Defense was even better though :-P

[HeinzBaby]

Played US, put all the 37's, TD's with a Inf plt+ .30Mg all in the orchard, Lee plt on the right flank with an Inf plt, zook & .30Mg on the rev slope of the ridge in front of the Lees. Last Inf plt strung along behind the stone wall in front of the mosque, all Inf hiding.
I just kept hitting play, 74-26 US Major Victory, only lost the Lees and TDs, my Inf didn't open fire until DAK Inf crossed the open ground before the walls, geez talk about Flanders :D ...Gerry armour never got past the ridge in front of their start lines...
Then I played Axis...lol
Consider the Hammering they got previously I planned a set piece assault on my left, and waited for all the Armour to arrive.
Lined up everyone before the ridgeline, timed the 105 Arty to HE area prep around the little house, with smoke from the mortars...
Blew the whistles, foot Inf moved off over into the rough, everything with wheels and tracks hooped up and over, accelerators to the floors. Geez what a mother of a dust cloud :D , The PzIII Co. closed bloody fast to the Lees and it was all over for in that neck of the woods. Lees must of panicked?, most of them drove around all over the place. Switched Arty to the mosque area and flanked the Shermans which were starting to give me a lot of hurt, with the my last plt of Pz III's. Rolled up the mosque and with my Inf. US surrendered before end game...
Got a Minor Axis Victory 63-37.
The PzIII cavalry charge was quite memorable, I couldn't afford a long range shoot-off with armour of those Lees and Shermans, nasty surprise that, Great senario Rune ;)

[rune]

Going to reply to the poster from the Scenario Depot. While I applaud greatly the work of Admiral Keth, you now see why I have given up on the depot, and no longer post scenarios there.

Spoilers in case you haven't played it yet....
*
*
*


Yes, you don't get it, as seen by the postings here. According to you, it is not playable since the Germans don't have tanks on turn 1.

Let's see, I have Nafziger, An Army at Dawn and others that all say the attack was led by, wait for it, by recon assets. You complain that tanks don't show up till turn 5.

So, five minutes into a battle you cannot launch a tank attack. If anything, the tanks arrive too early. However, i compressed what happened into a shorter time span. Use the few minutes to RECON and find out where the enemy is. Once that happens, you tanks have arrived and then launch the attack you planned. People here say all the time they want time to plan and then attack, they don't want to start in a fight right away.

The reason I picked the scenarios authors on the CD are they realize, there is NOT one style of play. Read all of the above to see how different people approached this differently. Don't get locked into it has to be one way or nothing.

No, you cannot surprise the Americans. No kidding. The engine doesn't allow that. You can set the tone, and most players will abide by that, but being a demo, I allowed it so players can try all sorts of things to get a feel for the game. There are also people who will always try gamey things, their loss. We have always designed the scenarios to be played with the default settings the first time through, and then play around if they want.

Out of about 35 emails I got, 4 asked questions, 3 thought the scenario was so-so, the rest loved it. You attacked it since it didn't fit you thinking. Sorry you didn't like it, but will take those numbers anyday.

Rune

[Thin Red Line]

There should be more reviews of this scenario on the Depot (http://ns9.super-hosts.com/~dragonlair.net/combatmission/CMAKscenarioreview03.php?UniqueID=3&Name=Fr%FChlingswind) as eveybody played it...

[Andreas]

Not even a contest. I whacked Elvis Panzer III driving fascist yahoos like the proverbial red-headed stepchildren, for an 88:12 magnificent victory following his grovelling surrender.

His Panzer III got caught in the cross-fire between the Grants and the Shermans, and that was that. The only thing he managed to annihilate was a platoon position in the centre of the map. I lost one Grant and one Sherman to frontal penetrations (sit down Bauhaus), as well as both M3GMCs (the latter to unknown causes).

Those PzB41 equipped HTs make nice BBQs after their spectacular explosions.

[Mad Russian]

Rune,

You need to go to the Scenario Talk Forum and check out the new thread. Check out Why there are so few reviews given...

You will see the thread is about your comments here on this thread.

Panther Commander

[Michael Dorosh]

EDITED to delete inappropriate comments. The thread re: rune and panther commander is at

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002719

for anyone interested.

[ December 07, 2003, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Lawngnome]

I gave my two cents at the depot... even if I am not the biggest fan of how they make some scenarios look.

Hey, there are a few bad eggs out there, but don't let it get you too heated Rune.

Good job, most of us appreciated this fine taste of what is to come.


-Palko

[Lt. Badger]

I don't have the full game yet (will be eagerly awaiting the mailman tomorrow!), but have been playing the demo as much as I can. I remember reading that the AI does better on defense, so I have been taking the attacking side. My first try as Germans in Fruhlingswind was a dismal failure, so I have been playing Line of Defense, but am now trying again on this one. Still not going well, so I'm hoping for some advice...

I decided to play it cool and patient and wait for my tanks to arrive before beginning the attack this time. I used the waiting time to get my infantry into position as close as possible to the ridges, ready to move out in coordination with the tank attack. I had one platoon on the north side, joined by the first group of infantry reinforcements that arrived with the halftracks; one platoon in the middle, to go down the wadi; and one platoon on the south, joined by later reinforcements that arrived riding tanks. I had the beginning 4 armored cars (PSW 222s) in position on the north to assist the infantry over there, the 3 halftracks (SPW 250/11s) toward the middle to assist the first 10 tanks in a rush over the ridge in the open area south of the wadi. When the last 5 tanks arrived, they would move into the middle open area north of the wadi to help out whichever direction seemed most in need.

Needless to say, hardly anything went as planned.

When my tanks fired at the American Grants, I mostly saw Ricochet results. When the Grants fired back, it was Knocked Out, Knocked Out, Knocked Out. I had the idea from reading this thread that the key would be to get my tanks in close as soon as possible, but that proved easier to say than to do. The tanks that were still capable of movement steadfastly ignored my orders to advance, preferring to retreat back over the ridge out of the line of fire, or at best to hold their ground. I had hoped that my 10 Panzers could take out the 5 Grants before the Shermans arrived, but as of turn 15 I have only 8 Panzers left (out of 15) and am still facing 5 Grants, plus the 5 Shermans! Not looking good at all...

About those SPWs... I see that they carry plenty of that nifty tungsten ammo, but it isn't much use when they refuse to fire a single shot! I first ordered them over the top in company with the first 10 Panzers, with the result of one SPW in flames and the other two in full reverse without firing a shot. Next I sent them across to the south (out of line of sight), then ordered them to do shoot-n-scoot which should have offered them some nice flank shots at the Grants that were shooting up my Panzers. The SPWs advanced to the top of the ridge, then as soon as they saw the enemy tanks they slammed into reverse and backed down - again without firing. How can I persuade them to use some of that T ammo to try and take out some enemy tanks?

The PSWs - are these things good for anything besides roasting marshmallows over? I sent them in support of the northern infantry push into the scrub brush, where they would be facing American infantry and one AT gun, and I figured their guns and MGs would be a big help there. Wrong - as soon as they cleared the ridge they were all dead in one turn, two in flames and the other two crippled and abandoned. Part of the problem was that I had counted on the simultaneous tank assault to distract the Grants, but at least one of the Grants decided to shoot at PSWs instead, all the way across the map - BOOM BOOM, flames and smoke erupt from dead PSWs.

I suppose I will play this out at least until all of my tanks are gone, but with my 8 tanks facing 10 of theirs, and my infantry attacks not all where I had hoped either, it is not looking good.

Any hints? Please?

Lt. Badger

[Big Demonic Bunny]

First I played as the Axis(this was my first time...ever... playing the game).


Playing as the Axis

My initial plan was to send one recon platoon over the left to reveal enemy positions by the simple expedient of letting them shoot at me.
The rightmost recon platoon would do the same thing on the right.
The center reconplatoon would sneak into the gully, right up to the end of it, and be ready to pounce at an oppertunity.
Since the enemy positions looked the weakest towards the right(not a large amount of cover from his point of view) I decide to have my scout cars pop up there and provide some covering fire for my right side platoon.
Expecting the majority of the enemy defenses to be located around the objectives I set down the Artillery markers right next to the mosque.
My initial plan for my panzers was to have them concentrated on the left flank(since that offered the best approach once the assult would begin), they would be in a depression for most of the way.
But originally I planned to have them shoot from the ridge.

Initially the plan went well, my recon squads sneaked over the ridge to the left, center and right. The armored cars went into hull down position on the right and immideatly an enemy halftrack revealed itself and was eliminated by the fire from my armored cars.
At that moment my own halftracks arrived and I decided to send them and the infantery with them to support the rightmost attack.

Then came the low point of the battle. In just 2 turns the AT guns supported by tankfire from the extreme left made smoldering piles out of all of the halftracks and 2 scout cars.
On my left flank my recon was detected and came under fire. The center recon though managed to get into the gully undetected(and over the following turns quickly maneuvered into position at the end of the gully, ready to strike).

I started to rain down artilleryfire around the mosque, figuring that since there was an AT piece there and probally loads of infantry this was probally the best time to unleash some death from above. The artilleryfire knocked out the central AT-piece. Which meant that as for now the threat against my viechles was the AT gun on the right and the tanks on the left.
My panzers had started arriving and I grouped them up for an attack on the left, dismounting infantery just behind the ridge.
I knew that my panzer IIIs would be unsuited for fighting against the AT piece on the right(Alot of punch for its calibre against tanks with an L60, but against infantery it's the calibre that's important, and 50mm just isn't enough)

If I had any PanzerIVs I might have tried to gun down that AT-gun, but now I didn't. So I decided that it would be best for my infantry to push on the attack on the right and destroy/pin it down while I made my move on the left. From now on I simply viewed my forces on the right(2 scout cars and 2 platoons of infantry) as expendable, a diversionary maneuver.

I knew that the lethal range for a Panzer III wasn't all that good, the tanks of the Afrika Korps had always been inferior to the tanks of their opponents, and 50mm/L60 vs 75mm/L38 didn't look good at all. He had both longer barrels and a larger calibre.
I had to get close where my guns would be proportionally more effective...and where my numbers would take it's toll.

When I had formed up my panzers for assult it showed that I could just fit in 10 panzers down that gully if I wanted to maintain a single line and a bit of space between them.
With the AT gun in the center down I figured that 1 Panzerplatoon could advance along the gully and then attack the enemy from the right, giving me a few shots against their side armor.
That idea looked even better when the Allied crew abandonded the AT gun on the right under my fierce attack(which meant that I brought up the Scoutcars alot closer to support my troops against the pesky infantery that had revealed themselves.

Now my panzers surged forward, the infantery running along besides them.
I lost no panzer as I crossed the ridge(suprisingly enough) and then surged into the valley below.

On the right my infantry came under bombardment from two shermans, but luckily my scoutcars were deployed where the shermans couldn't hit them, and the shermans were deployed too far back to hit my Panzers on the left(the orchard was in the way). The infantry on the right was now firmly bogged down from the combined might of the shermans and the remaining infantry, but as I viewed them as expendable I didn't mind. As long as they occupied the shermans it was worth it!

My attack on the left went exceptionally well.
The 2 panzerplatoons on the utmost left quickly surged forward and went into a hull down position JUST infront of the grants and started to trade slugs(the Grants NOT giving as good as they got).
Meanwhile my panzers in the center surged forward, crossed the gully and attacked the Grants from the right(destroying a Halftrack skulking behind the houses along the way).

Now that my panzers were up close the Grants went down quickly, with just 3 of my own panzers lost(and one of those to a bazooka team).

The following turns were spent bombarding the enemy infantry around the leftmost objective into submission while my own infantry caught up.

Once my own squads caught up they charged and the enemy infantry surrendered or were destroyed.

Now my Panzers on the center started bombarding the infantrypositions around the mosque.
The forces on my leftmost flank now wheeled in, and promptly I lost 2 panzers to shermans skulking behind the buildings and way back in the orchard.
A fierce battle between my leftmost Panzers and those Shermans erupted, and ended with 3 shermans dead. I had now lost a total of 6 panzers(the rightmost platoon being unharmed the leftmost platoon being eliminated and the last platoon having lost 1 tank).

I was just lucky the Shermans on the far right were still trying to shoot up my infantry(with little effect, they were bogged down, but not taking alot of casualties).

Now my infantry surged up to the mosque and from the gully(the Recon platoon that had been left there) and quickly eliminated the enemy. The support of 9 panzers was quite enough to keep the enemy pinned down whily my forces assulted, and once close up the forces who had endured fire from panzers and artilleryfire were quite thinned down.

I left a platoon of infantry to guard the objective and surged on towards the Orchard to eliminate the last tanks and to mop up the remaining infantry on the right.
The 2 remaining shermans proved to be quite a nuiscance and eliminated 4 more panzers before going down.
Then the computer surrrendered.

End result.
A major victory for me.
Remaining forces were:
5 Panzers(3 from the Rightmost platoon and two from the central)
1 Scout car(the other had been eliminated by the shermans)
Loads of infantry(except for the recon and infantry platoon on the right the Panzers had done most of the fighting, the infantry merely mopped up. Blitzkreig personified).

Closing comment: Not bad for playing the game for the first time.


As the Allies

This fight was ALOT easier. Defense when you're in hull down position and the enemy tanks have a disadvantage at range, combined with an AI that isn't all too keen on the assult ends up with a quite easy victory for the allies.

With my experience of the limitations of AI this time I fully expected the enemy panzers to stay back at the ridge if I gave them enough of a fight.
With that in mind I let all armored viechles stay in place.
I only made two real changes.

1. I regrouped my central bazooka team and the HQ captain to the left flank, besides the AT gun. I figured that if the enemy attacked at the center my AT units would have a field day anyway(with lots of flankshots), and I had a plan for those bazookas.
I also withdrew my spotter to the mosque and repositioned the central mortar to a more favorable position.
2. I grouped my Halftracks in the orchard so that they couldn't be seen from the ridge but could bombard the area directly infront of the low wall around the mosque.


At the start of the battle I set all my units to hide. Predictably enough the enemy infantry surged over the ridge, and when they were unopposed the scout cars(followed by the halftracks) did the same, right into my trap.
My AT guns and a Grant opened fire and quickly eliminated 3 Halftracks and 2 scoutcars.
The remaining forces ducked back behind the ridge.

Now my shermans arrived and I positioned 3 shermans behind the mosque area, the low wall giving them a hull down position.
The Shermans on the left quickly rushed into hull down position just infront of the oasis.

The following 20 turns were quite uneventful. Merely a long range gunduel where the combined might of my shermans, AT-guns and Grants very slowly pounded the Panzers to pieces.
The enemy infantry surged forward.
On the left flank(against my 37mm AT gun) the attack was weak. Probally just a recon platoon and was quickly repulsed by my infantry(and with the occasional assistance of the two shermans when ever they weren't firing on the panzers).
But on the center(along the gully) and on the right(infront of my Grants) the attack was fierce.

On the right they were shot to bits at close range by the Grants, but at the mosque they called in an artillerystrike that pinned down my troops and then surged forward en masse.
The only thing that saved that position was the fact that I had positioned the two halftracks in the orchard. With the aid of the halftracks the last 30 meters before the wall was turned into a killing zone and the attack was repulsed.

Then the enemy infantry just milled around in the brush. I couldn't get clear shots at them, and I didn't want to advance against them and instead was satisfied to shoot any infantry that showed itself(and emptying my 75mm artillery on a particulary dense mass of krauts).

During the slow wearing gunduel the panzers had suffered losses. Severe losses. The ridge was littered with some destroyed(but most abandoned) panzers. All in all I counted 11 panzers destroyed, plus all remaining halftracks and 1 scoutcar.
I knew the enemy had only 1 scout car and 4 panzers left(having played the scenario before as the germans).
Now I sent forward my leftmost infantry(leaving a machinegun, the platoon leader and 1 infantry platoon to keep the jerries in the brush pinned down from the side).
The rest crept up toward the ridge led my my captain(The captain with 2 infantry, 2 bazookas).
Then they sneaked along the ridge(occasionally sending up an infantry squad to take a peek).
The discovered the remaining scoutcar and the bazookas pulverized it. Then the Grants knocked out 1 more Panzer and I decided to send up my two shermans on the left.
Combined attacks from the bazookas and the two shermans neutralized the final panzers, and then the enemy gave up.

Total victory.
NO lost viechles.
I just lost 1 AT gun(the central 57mm AT gun being knocked out by infantry and artillery) and some infantry.

P.S.: My attempts at Line of Defense didn't go nearly as well. Both as attacker and defender I found it to be tough...very tough. As the defender the lack of tanks and panzershrecks was....worrying. As the attack. Urk... those hidden AT guns were nasty, and the Tiger at the end pretty much eliminated all my remaining tanks..except for 1 Stuart and 1 Sherman. I never managed more than a Major victory as the attacker and a minor victory as the defender)

[Troy Spiral]

Me being the worst CM player ever, i took the default setup, as allies.

Then i only gave orders on -two- turns all the rest i just let the AI do its thing. I won by a landslide.

No point in playing this one as allies unless you want to just see how badly you can whoop the AI over and over again or just "to do it".

Havnt played as the Germans yet.

[ December 17, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Troy Spiral ]

[Thin Red Line]

Definitely my favourite demo scenario since CMBO.

We ended it with a draw as germans in PBEM (51% Allies 49% Axis) 7 tanks, including 1 gun damaged, left for the latter, 1 gun damaged Grant remaining on the US side, but still some GIs inside the Mosque.

The 20mm HT were rather effective at giving trouble to the Grant TacAI with nasty multiple side penetrations.