Little Qualities in Tech

[Liam]

Say will the 109 have a slight hex Handicap? Like they did historically. Like 4 hexes instead of 5, representing their short range. Will German Artillery get bonuses in FirePower? Will British Fighters get a combat bonus, considering the Spitfire was hot in '39-'40
Will Brits get real bombers in the Lancaster whilst the He-111 doesn't really represent a heavy bomber...

Likewise for other Tanks, Airplanes, troops, Artillery, ships, etc...

[ev]

Originally posted by Liam:
Say will the 109 have a slight hex Handicap? Like they did historically. Like 4 hexes instead of 5, representing their short range.
Not sure what was the efective range of the Me 109. Keep in mind that the Me 109 was an older plane than those used by most US and British pilots. In terms of SC, the Me 109 corresponds to a Long Range Tech Level 0, while the Mustang probably corresponds a Long Rage Tech Level 3 or 4.

Of course, the Mustangs become available a few years later. SC represents this by the time spent waiting for the new tech to become available.

SC1 had one big flaw. In SC1, all Me 109 automatically and at no cost became longer range planes as soon as Germany discovered higher Long Range Tech Level. From what I have read elsewhere in this site, SC2 will correct that. When Germany discovers a new tech, the good old Me 109 will continue to be good old Me 109, unless the player buys new planes for that particular unit.

[Liam]

ev,

yep. I understand, when I refer to WW2 though I mean Willy's 109 only.

I'm certian between the Yakolev the most produced aircraft of the era and ironically later used by the Irealis? heh tongue.gif I heard that one from a resource on her had to laugh.

Great short range AC, now if you put an alteration with a drop tank, perhaps it could go LR without some major modifications? Or, would it matter as they had them already and over England the Spits and Hurricanes would engage them to force them to drop the tank to force them to Dogfight and go home before they could finish escorting their bombers.

So really the limitations should be placed in there. The other planes of the era, even the P38 that or P40 had much better range than the 109 and were around in production at the time USA entered the war. Not 100% Sure on the Lightning.

I also though the P40 was in service bigtime for the FAF and while the Spitfire was far superior the English should start off with more Hurricanes. More Obsolete Aircraft... The Germans would have the advantage in that they had more, high qualit aircraft to begin with. Though the Brits should upgrade more of their craft as 1940 progresses. This way the Hurricane wouldn't match the 109 during France and later during Invasion of the Isles the 109s would not say only have a limited Op Range, when they get to London or where ever in England they should have less combat ability with limited to fight unless there are no English interceptors. That way they can fly around the country to the last minute with their droptanks doing all the damage they'd like then plop and do 15 minutes more and go home...


Though the above is fairly detailed at least a Movement Penatly for the Fuel Load would be good. US Aircraft starting off with more Chits representing the 3-4 they put in LR and achieved rather quickly. P-51s, P-38s could fly to Berlin from Bases in East Anglia, what is the LR equivelant in SC to that? 4 or 5?

[SeaMonkey]

From the WW2 encyclopedia:
Bf 109E/G models(1937-1942) range 410/525 miles

Hawker Hurricane Mk1/MkIIc (1937-1940) 525/920 miles

Curtiss Warhawk IA P-40E (1939-1942) 850 miles

Lockheed Lightening P-38G/L (1941-1943) 1400/2250 miles

North American Mustang P-51B/C-D (1942-1944)2200/2100 miles

remember they are supposed to make the return trip so all ranges /2 for SC application. I'm not sure if this includes weapon loads but I believe this is for fighter use only (mgs and cannon), although the P-40E did have 500 lb bomb load max. qualifier. Also I'm sure this doesn't include any extraneous activity (dogfights/strafing, etc.), it is presented as the maximum possible under ideal conditions (weather/ceiling/normal payloads). There are other models but these represent a cross section of the most abundant models produced.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Divide the ranges by a third to get the combat radius. Assume 50 mile "tile".

Bf 109E/G models(1937-1942) range 3/4 "tiles".

Hawker Hurricane Mk1/MkIIc (1937-1940) 4/6 "tiles"

Curtiss Warhawk IA P-40E (1939-1942) 6 "tiles"

Lockheed Lightening P-38G/L (1941-1943) 9/15 "tiles"

North American Mustang P-51B/C-D (1942-1944) 15/14 "tiles"


Interesting isn't it? Sure would seem to validate the people who for many months have asked that the initial range of Air units be reduced significantly. Not to mention those who have asked that when Tech Level 4 of Jets is reached, the Air unit range be reduced as well.

[ May 26, 2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Edwin P.]

Thanks for the Analysis in SC terms. I assume that the combat range of WWII Bombers was much longer - say 20 tiles (1000 miles); however, they would not have any spotting capability over this extended range as they were flying directly to a target and back.

[SeaMonkey]

Well since you brought it up Shaka:

Me 262-1a (1944) range 525 miles

Gloster Meteor MkIII (1944) 1340 miles

That's the only jets of any consequence for WW2.

[SeaMonkey]

And for you Edwin:

Junkers Ju 88A-4 (1938-1940) range 1700 miles

Vickers Wellington IC (1938) 2550 miles

Boeing Flying Fortress B-17F (1940-1942) 3800 miles

Savoia-Marchetti SM79-1 (1937) 1180 miles

Ilyushin II-4 DB-3F (1938-1940) 2359 miles

Mitsibushi Ki-21-IIa/b Sally (1938-1941) 1700 miles

The Junkers, SM79, Vickers, and the Ilyushin were considered medium bombers. There are many others, but these were the earlier models with the greatest production.

[Edwin P.]

Thanks SeaMonkey. Very Much appreciated.

This appears to mean that a Air Fleets Range should be about 5 Tiles at start and the Bombers Ranage about 15 titles at start (on average).

As for the spotting range. I would give Air Fleets a spotting Range of 5 tiles and Bombers a spotting range of 4 tiles as they were not used for intelligence gathering.

One problem with assigning such a long range to bombers is that if a Naval Ship spots an enemy fleet at 15 tiles then they can call in an air strike on it. Would this be realistic?

[Retributar]

Unless im incorrect...isn't 1-Tile 50 X 50 Miles... .

If so ...i dont see how any aircraft can spot more than 1 tile at the most!.

--AND that's only if you are travelling at low altitude where there are also no CLOUDS,...if you are up to something like 20,000 ft and higher...you may not be able to see anything on the ground period!...and if you do see something...you wouldn't be able to tell what it is anyway!.

So...as far as im concerned...Bombers or Bomber Formations should not be able to spot at all!.

Special low-flying reconnaissance aircraft ...who's role was specialized for that purpose should be used!.

However...considering but the scale of this game(Operational)...i wouldnt have any Air-Reconnaissance at all!.

[ May 27, 2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[SeaMonkey]

Remember guys these AFs and SBs of SC are multi-tasked multi type aircraft representations, flying many different sorties and mission types during a SC game turn. Now think about it Edwin, if you were doing long range reconnaissance, which aircraft type would you choose? Which aircraft type could carry multi cameras, sensors and stay aloft for a longer period of time? Which aircraft type can fly at higher altitudes so as to be less detectable?

[Edwin P.]

Perhaps I am wrong but I don't believe that heavy bombers were tasked for intelligence missions deep behind enemy occupied areas (except over the Atlantic) and the technology available to bombers during WWII was much below that available to Bombers today. I will have to research this. Most spotting was done along the front lines and unlike in SC1 enemy air units affected/degraded ones ability to spot units located behind enemy lines.

In fact, I think that the presence of enemy air units should degrade your spotting ability in some fashion. The key questions are is their a simple way to do this and will it improve the game as I think it will.

[ May 27, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[With Clusters]

What planes were used for long range intelligence gathering then? Obviously bombers weren't going in blind to their target - something with equal range had already flown in and taken pictures of landmarks for navigation and of potential targets and such. Perhaps air units should not have an 'automatic' spotting radius. Instead, maybe a player would actually have to assign an air unit to recon a specific, finite area? Perhaps, considering the size of the air units in the game, and their presumed multi-tasking ability, this could be done in addition to a 'combat' action in the same turn? Just an idea...

[Liam]

Bombers can be converted to reveal info about Enemy, it's called Recon, <not sure if mentioned by another> it " isn't " every hex or tile in every single direction that's revealed. It would be limited to 1 path. That path would also have troubles due to the fact of things like camofloug. Why do you think everyone in the Army, Navy and Airforce wear those funny colors for? You just can't look out at 20 thousand feet and say hey look that's the German 6th Army when you've got 100s of Flak Cannons blowing out your arse.

Also as mentioned plain bombers are equiped for Bombing and Covering themyselves from incoming Intercepters. They don't have time to be taking pictures and giving tons of info on Recon at 100 feet through hundreds if not thousands of miles in hostile enemy country. In real life they're working on real time, and they often keep radio silence or an ME-109 will be up their but in two shakes of a lambs tail.

Info on Ranges, nice! That would be suitable for application in SC2, no?

I'd like to add my rundown on Fighter Combat Quality of Each Fighter on a 1-10 scale:

ME109 - 6 <F-K Model 7>
FW190 - 7
P40 - 4
Hurricane- 5
Spitfire - 7 <Mark 3 on up Model Only>
Yak - 3
P38 - 5
P51 - 8 <D Model only>
Me 262 - 9

<others opinions please add to performance levels>


Experience Levels for US Fighters, starting 1 Bar of experience due to the extreme training programs. 1 Bar for the Germans due to Spanish Civil War.

0 For French/Brit/Russians... When battle of Britian Erupts plus 1 for Brits due to the influx of experienced pilots dedicating to the cause, the officer branch of the RAF to support fighting the LW from Nazi world Tyranny.

[ May 27, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Since you are taking requests SeaMonkey...

FW190
Spitfire
Yak
Stuka
and whatever the frontline Italian aircraft where.

I think I'm missing the Russian frontline aircraft and a few Allied types. But I don't remember what they where off the top of my head.

I'll check my info when I get home.

[SeaMonkey]

My pleasure Shaka:

Folke-Wulf 190A-8 (1941-1943) range 495 miles
the 190G-3 fighter bomber range 395 miles (2755lbs bomb load)

Supermarine Spitfire Mk IA (1938) 395 miles
Mk VB (1938-1941) 470 miles
Mk IX (1938-1942) 980 miles
MkXIV (1938-1944) 850 miles

Yakovlec Yak-1 (1940) range 530 miles
Yak-3 (1943) 560 miles
Yak-7 (1942) 510 miles
Yak-9D (1942) 875 miles

Junkers Ju87B-1/2 (1937-1938) range 490 miles
Ju 87D-1 (1937-1941) 950 miles

Fiat C.R. 42AS (1939) range 480 miles
Macchi M.C.200 (1939) 540 miles
Macchi M.C.202 (1941) 475 miles

The only other Russian frontline fighter aircraft I have listed as abundant were:
Lavochkin La-5FN (1941-1943) range 475 miles
La-7 (1941-1944) 395 miles

As far as the Allies, for the Americans other than carrier borne and special night-fighters are:
Republic Thunderbolt P-47D (1942-1943) range 590 miles
Bell Aircobra P-39Q (1941-1943) 675 miles
Brewester Buffalo F2A-3 (1939-1941) 960 miles

France:
3 types, Bloch 152/Dewoltine D520/Morane-Saulnier MS 406 C1 (1939-1940) range 336/550/460 miles respectively.

There are other countries listed but for this discussion their ranges are not much different then the ones already stated. 350-584 mile range

I'll mention one other fighter aircraft of significance:
Bf 110C-1 (1938-1939) range 680 miles

Obviously we're just looking at the range comparisons and this in no way qualifies the mission effectiveness of these aircraft in air to air combat.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Thank you SeaMonkey... that is exactly what I wanted. My home computer is either on strike or needs a rest (ie it doesn't work right now), so I couldn't look up the aircraft types.

So now we have enough information to compile the ranges and start looking at how the various fighter and strike aircraft would be together.

I probably won't be doing any of this until Tuesday of next week, but I wouldn't object to someone else doing the work either.

And yes, while the SC aircrafts are "generic", it doesn't hurt to see what the historical values are, so we can have generic values that are realistic for the appropriate time frames.

[SeaMonkey]

Shaka,

If we're looking to qualify SC AFs as they are now, shouldn't we examine some of the tactical bombers that would also be a part of this TO&E? Predominantly, I have only posted fighter types. Should we also include some recon models?

[Panzeh]

The ME262 is grossly overrated in its fighter ability by most people simply because it's a jet. It was better at slashing through bomber formations than dealing with fighters, because of its lack of maneuverability.

[Retributar]

Hey...please check out the 'Statistics / Information' post i put up...it took me 5 minutes to get this information!.

http://www.allegiancewars.com/Science/Technology/Aerospace/Aeronautics/History/WorldWarII/

once there goto 'The Home Page of World War 2 Aircraft'...

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~wingman/

--Then in the Left hand column...you'll be able to check the statistics for almost any of the 'MAIN-Aircraft' in the war that you want to...
------------

To hear some Aircraft sound bytes...

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/9378/download.html (Various Aircraft Sound-Bytes)

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/9378/index.html (Me Bf 109 & Spitfire Sound-Bytes)

Just right-click and choose 'save target as' to save sound-bytes and short movie-clips of the aircraft.

[ May 29, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Liam]

Stukas, Me-110s, Blenshiems, Sturmoviks<sp, on and on and on.....

The way SC portrays Fighters, a large number would be the above. Fighter Bombers/DiveBombers/Medium Bombers/Tank Busters rather than Combat air-to-air fighters

Imbalanced, so in the future Fighters Ground attack should be reduced if not I'm sure someone will make it staple in an edited version of the game.

[Shaka of Carthage]

SeaMonkey
Yes, we should have the stats on the Tac Bombers as well. The range of the Recon models would be interesting as well.

[SeaMonkey]

Well one thing has become very clear at this point of investigating the range and uses of various aircraft of WW2. Not something that hasn't been brought up before, we need at least 3 types of aircraft units or at least an abstraction of 3. First category is of course fighters and fighter-bombers and short range groung attack dive bombers of which we have examined the most prolific models. Second is medium, light and naval, dive and torpedo, ground attack tactical bombers. Well you all have guessed the third category, at the risk of redundancy the strategic, heavy bomber. Still looking into recon types, but its seems that role was pretty much played by the variants of models that will be specified here in these 3 categories.

[SeaMonkey]

Just an added little tidbit. Remember how we talked about Germany's decision to not actually put emphasis on strategic bombers? It might be of interest that they actually built 1120 four engined Heinkel 177A-5 "Griffon" heavy bombers. Max speed at 20000 feet was 303 mph and a max bomb load of 13200 pounds. Went into service in 1943. Anyone want to guess the range? You were right if you said 3400 miles. Now that's a strategic bomber.

[ev]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:
Just an added little tidbit. Remember how we talked about Germany's decision to not actually put emphasis on strategic bombers? It might be of interest that they actually built 1120 four engined Heinkel 177A-5 "Griffon" heavy bombers. Max speed at 20000 feet was 303 mph and a max bomb load of 13200 pounds. Went into service in 1943. Anyone want to guess the range? You were right if you said 3400 miles. Now that's a strategic bomber. This goes to show how hard it is to learn from the mistakes of others. In 1942-43 the Germnas were knocking down Allied Bombers that outstriped their fighter escorts. Yet they built a Bomber that would face the very same problem...

[SeaMonkey]

I'm going to throw a quick summary of what I think we should see for Airforces is SC2. This is a preliminary assessment. First I believe each country(major) should be able to purchase a generic Air Hq(user named) as put forth earlier by DD, one per combatant. This Hq would coordinate the 3 possible air units types with some enhancing features. The 3 types are fighter/fighter bombers/SR ground attack aircraft, light and medium ground attack and tactical/level bombers, and finally long range medium/heavy strategic bombers. There is an overlap of each type into the roles the others play but they should have their own unique qualities that they excel in. For example: FFB should be only able to provide air superiority/escort tasks with some close support and naval attack abilities,good recon, very little strategic abilities. TACs should have some inherent AD qualities but excel in ground and naval attack with a better strategic ability, some % of FBB recon status. Then of course SACs should provide the strategic mission capabilities with some AD and a smaller ground/naval attack role, very little recon characteristics.

[ev]

Hi SeaMonkey.

I like very much support creating 3 types of air units as per your suggestions.

I am not sure about the generic Air HQ. I would like to hear how you guys would work it out, but here are some of my thoughts:

1. Some air units are dispatched to far away places such as North Africa or the Eastern Froont. Those units have to be supplied from HQ's in those far away places. ...for those units in far away places it does not make sense to attach them to a central Air HQ in Berlin or London.

2. Some air units will be enganged in local ground support. It seems to me it makes more sense to attach those units to local ground HQ's.

3. I guess the Air HQ makes more sense for the "Strategic Air Campaign". Somehow, some units would be removed from the "tactical HQ's" and attached to a centra "Strategic HQ". I see the point, but how would you go about implementing it in the game?

[SeaMonkey]

Point 3 is exactly on. The generic air Hq would be for a strategic centralized base of operations such as was the case for the Eighth USAF in UK during WW2. Also known as Bomber Command for the British contingent. This would represent a concerted effort to establish air superiority and conduct strategic operations over an operational theater. Of course air units deployed elsewhere would come under the authority of the local theater Hqs as we have now in SC.

[SeaMonkey]

Further ev, imagine this feature in an historical context, eventually the Allies will have 3 of the generic air HQ organizations and the Axis will start and end up with potentially only 2.

[SeaMonkey]

The medium/tactical/level bombers of WW2:

France
Amiot 143M/Bloch 210 BN4/Liore' et Olovier 451 B4
1240 miles range,1936/1050 mi.,1937/1800 mi. 1939

Germany
Dornier Do17Z-2/Heinkel He111H-6/Junkers Ju88A-4
930 mi.,1937-38/1200 mi.,1936-41/1700 mi.,1938-40

Italy
CANT Z.1007bis/Fiat BR.20M/Savoia-Marchetti SM79-1
1110 mi.,1938/1700 mi.,1938-39/1180 mi.,1937

UK
Blenheim IV/Hampden Mk1/Wellington 1C
1460 mi.,1937-39/1990 mi.,1938/2550 mi.,1938
light bombers
de Haviland Mosquito B.Mk XVI/Fairey Battle MkIII
1480 mi.,1941-42/1000 mi.,1937

USA
Martin Marauder B-26B/N.American Mitchell B-25J
1150 mi., 1941-42/2700 mi.,1941-43
light bombers
Havoc A-20G/Invader A-26B/Hudson A-29 IIIA
1100 mi.,1941-42/1800mi.,1944/2800 mi.,1939-40

USSR
Ilyushin II-4 DB-3F/Tupolev Tu-2S
2350 mi.,1938-40/1240 mi., 1944

Do we need to examine the heavy strategic bombers of the period?