Units I miss in Sc2 WaW

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

WaW almost covered all the units I wanted to see in the game.

Still I miss a low cost garrison unit. It’s not very realistic to leave cities completely without defences like you are forced to now.

Same remains with low quality units like Volksturm and UK “Home Guard”, they are not the same thing as Militia/Partisans.

Also I miss elite units like the SS and Soviet Guards. Both played such important roles that they just have to be present.

I’m not a programmer, but I guess it could be done with minor changes. My wishes below I guess could be harder to archive.

For instance it would be nice if you could be able to have different sizes like battalions, regiments and division together with corps and armies in the same game.

HQ should have the possibility to connect to certain units and therefore create Army groups/Fronts.

Finally the retreat option has to be looked into. Its absence certainly cripples the game as it’s now.

This should be treated as constructive ideas and not complains about, in many aspects, a great game.

[ February 09, 2008, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Paul 'Papa' Hausser ]

[MajorRH]

I am looking to include UK Home Guards Units in my divisional / brigade level Sea Lion Mod under development. In the mean time, I have decided to redefine UK Engineer Units as Home Guard. Home Guard Units were actively involved in building various local defences anyway.

Under the Campaign Country Data Menu, you can re-label the unit, redefine its MPP cost, its production delay and combat data to something appropriate.

More unit type selections will offer better game development opportunities.

Cheers,

MajorRH

[Colin I]

I also miss low cost garrison. Think they should be placed in cities or other tiles with good supply but are immobile (they are local resources) and be weak but allowed to entrench a bit extra (they know their own terrain very well). This would let Germans fortify coast of France to historical levels (lots of poor troops in good bunkers), for example. They might also represent some minor countries and even early Russian.

We might need to fix engineer capabilities at same time.

We don't need SS or Guards - game handles elite units already.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

Colin I
"We don't need SS or Guards - game handles elite units already."
Please explain that more in detail.

In my original post I also forgot to mention my wish regarding motorisation. Level 1 and 2 should have there own icons just like tanks. There level 1 should be motorisation and mean faster transports by road and level 2 be mechanisation and faster transports on roads and flat terrain. The icons could for instance have a truck and a halftrack in addition to the default infantry symbols.

A low prio wish is that Engineers should be able to place and remove mines in low scale scenarios.

Thanks again for your space and time. smile.gif

[Colin I]

The experience system lets you build units above strength 10. So, a combination of resources and experience can be used to create more powerful units that handle casualties better.

Think this is enough.

[Joshua22]

I think Paul Hausser has a point here. It's true that the game let's you play very experienced troops as elite forces. But Hausser refers to the historical fact of regular forces versus elite troops, say SS versus Wehrmacht, and so on.
I use the special forces as elite shock troops.
But there is no highly mobile armored elite corps... other than your battle hardened forces.
I think the game engine reaches it limit here. It guarantees a simple, fluid and addicting gameplay... but can't step into too much detail.

And I would like to see Volkssturm and garrisons too. Keeps those pesky partisans out.

[aesopo]

A simple soution would be as major mentioned is to relabel the units - you can simply use the editor and rename partisan units for germany as garrison, etc; special forces as SS or red guards, etc. With motorization, you would probably have to edit the icons as a bitmap if you are using 2-D icons. Also allow Germany in unit build data to beable to build the garrison units.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

Thank you all for your answers and inputs.

Then it comes to elite units, their size 1-15 is not what characterizing them. First of all I want them to be separate units with their own icons. Let’s say with a SS sign, red star, ranger emblem and so on, in for ex. their upper left corner.
Their increased combat strength should be unique for them. Also their morale and readiness should be higher. All to reflect that really makes an elite unit, better/prioritised equipment, higher morale/dedications and better organisation/readiness.

The bottom line here is that SC2 WaW needs to be able to handle more infantry types, then it could be up to us and call them what we want and even create additional icons.

But those basic ones I mentioned in my first post should be added to give the game the flexibility it deserves.

[SeaMonkey]

PPH you do understand the consequences of taking this program into more detail? Terif has already presented his point and it is indeed not without logic. The game has the ability to do what you are asking, maybe not quite as specifically as you would like, but never the less capable.

Look around you, all the masses of humans, all with a little bit different requirements and societies trying to accomodate everyone. Do you see the platform for complication? Ever think about how incompetent humans seem to have become in mass? Maybe they are not really that ignorant, but perhaps they are constantly diluting their attentive essence in trying to keep up with the requirements of living in a complicated society.

There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple. Simple has the ability to adjust efficiently, its not trying to remedy every specific event, take care of every possibility, it requires you to innovate, to improvise.

You want to be free, personal responsibility goes with freedom, they are inseparable. You have the freedom to change SC to a degree, abstract the rest.

[arado234]

PPH when any unit is at a fifteen with the best equipment wouldnt that be considered elite anyway?

Ive had some 15 tanks at level 5 tech. and they just blow right through anything that isnt close to their equal.Im sure its the same with any other unit.That to me sounds like an elite unit.

I tend to agree with SeaMonkey on this one.The game(imo)is maxed out at the campaign level for all the different types of units.

[jon_j_rambo]

Very much agree with needing garrisons or elite units.

[Joshua22]

Yeah sure Panzers 15 at level 5 are amazing... gamewise. They are elite units... gamewise. But it still feels as if you're missing something.
The Volkssturm for example, elderly not well trained men, could be in game mechanics; cheap fast produced units, tough on panzers but vulnerable to everything else.
I haven't got a clue as to how you could make German SS or Russian Guard units in this game. Better organization? Harder to kill? Highly motivated?
Another problem is, how much detail do you want without destroying the gameplay and turning it into a chore?
Oh well, obviously more brilliant people then me are working on this as we speak :)
Can't wait for the new update.

[jon_j_rambo]

I don't care if they fight better, you just got have some Bunta counters.

[arado234]

I think if you added Volksstrum units it would give Germany to many units unless they somehow came out of the overall force pool.I do think it would look neat if you could give a unit a actual elite icon.

I think rambo is a closet Bunta(ha ha).

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

SeaMonkey
Wow, what a post. ” There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple”. Does that apply on your posts as well? :D

arado234
Then it comes to level 1-15 I can agree to a point, but not fully. But I’m prepared to rest my case. :cool:

Anyhow, we need for 2-3 more infantry units is as urgent as needed. Then you can make anything you like of it.
My recommendation is still, one garrison unit (soldier standing at attention), one low cost/quality unit (two upright walking soldiers) and one more unit to be able to make a unique elite unit icon (add for instance a red star and so on to an existing icon).

I see a problem in the fact that elite units there in many cases quite different in the warring countries.
SS for instance had its completely own organisation and so on. Its impact on the fronts of WWII should guaranty them a given place in the game. To avoid legal problems you could just avoid the SS name in the German or all versions. Let it be up to us to add the SS in names and bitmap icons. Other countries elite units could be done with no legal concerns I guess.
SS could just be black or darkened versions of the existing bitmaps.

It would be great to hear Hubert’s thought around this. :rolleyes:

[pzgndr]

Anyhow, we need for 2-3 more infantry units is as urgent as needed. The game already provides corps, army, paratroop, anti-tank, and engineer unit types which can all be customized as various infantry types. You can futher customize any unit as elite by providing it tech upgrades, elite reinforcements and HQ support.

Another tank unit type for either light armor, mech infantry or armored cav would be urgent than another infantry slot.

[xwormwood]

Volksturm was quickly drafted, with nearly no training, lousy equipment and stupid leadership (Nazi party leaders, not Wehrmacht).
Maybe these kind of units could be units "drafted" / scrambled out of the production line? You get a corps unit you have already paid for pretty fast ("i want them, i got them"), but therefor these units get no HQ-Support, limited strenghtpoints, no experience, limited tech possibilities and a certain chance that they disintegrate the moment they take heavy losses (fled home), maybe even lowering morale of regular troops nearby.

Elite unts are already in the game, as soon as you build them up properly and get them experience.
You can't buy experience or morale.
But you can transfer it.
Maybe it would be a nice addition to the game if players get the possibility to transfer experience from one unit to another one? The receiving unit could get some experience while the donor unit would loose more experience then the receiving unit would get from the transfer (new unit, new leaders, new equipment, new comrades, so the top notch transfers loose some of their old effecience).
This way players would be able to get Elite Units the historical way. And we wouldn't need some new unit types.

Btw: i really don't want any special SS Units in this game. Just use the bloody rename function, that is more than enough, Special colours? Yawn.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

Pzgndr

“Another tank unit type for either light armor, mech infantry or armored cav would be urgent than another infantry slot.”

Yes, I agree it’s just as important as some additional infantry units. I mentioned the need of motorization units/icons in my initial post.

Down is a list of units, techs and functions that I think should be added to SC2, prioritized from 1 to 9.

1. Garrison unit
1. Elite unit
1. Retreat function in combat

2. Low quality unit
2. Light tank unit/Armoured car/Scout unit
2. Trucks added to the icon when motorisation 1
2. Halftracks added to the icon when motorisation 2

3. A-bomb tech
3. No ships incl. Transports/Amf should't be able to pass stronger ships w/out getting shot at.

4. Separate Carrier and its air unit/s
4. Naval bomber unit
4. Scout plane unit

5. Mountain units
5. Self propelled AT
5. Self propelled artillery

6. HQ lockable to units
6. Fortifications should be garrisoned as an alternative

7. Sp.Forces tech (move independent from control zones)

8. Mine boat unit
8. Sea mine unit

9. Patrol/Small boat unit

[ February 09, 2008, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Paul 'Papa' Hausser ]

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

xwormwood

“Btw: I really don't want any special SS Units in this game. Just use the bloody rename function, which are more than enough, Special colours? Yawn.”

You think its ok with Special Forces and engineers, but not with SS? :eek:
And then it comes to colours, they had different uniforms. Even thou the reason you give them a own colour is simply because they are not a part of Wehrmacht. Most games use black or dark grey to distinguish them.

I can agree that Soviet Guard units could be regular units renamed, because that was more or less what Stalin did. And then it’s up to you to prioritise them. That’s pretty close to reality.

But SS was unique in having a complete own organisation, a dedication and moral not seen in any other fighting units under the war. As said before, their impact wherever they shoved up was tremendous.
Then you play allied and drop paratroops or land on a beach to find black icons, you should gasp not yawn like the swearing Maggot. :D

That ads a new dimension to the game, that just should make it even better.

[ February 09, 2008, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Paul 'Papa' Hausser ]

[arado234]

PPH would you suggest giving the SS units better morale and rediness right from the start?In most cases they were much better prepared to fight.

If this is added to the game what would you suggest to be given to the Allies?Remember Russia produced and fielded more Artty. than the rest of the world combined.This is in no way represented in this game.Im assuming this because of play balance.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

arado234

Yes, that’s exactly what I mean. Also, I want them to have a unique icon to add to the game feeling. These units like, SS and Red Guard, will be even more important if SC2 WaW later on implements the retreat function.

I think more artillery for Soviet and artillery level 2 for USA could balance it.
It’s hard to balance it with infantry then it comes to UK and USA. They were quite poor units, with very few divisions that could be considered elite.
If you read some of the latest books in the subject, some authors even suggest that the west allies were on the brink of collapse. UK and Canadian troops didn’t make much difference at all to the fighting in Western Europe.
Only the effective US artillery and US/UK air superiority were a threat to the Germans, so that should be reflected in the game.
A fully agree to radically increase the Soviet amount of artillery.

[xwormwood]

As far as i know the first SS units wiped themself out of the war because thes were fantical believers, ignoring military wisdom.

Later than they got mostly better equipment than the wehrmacht.

And even later they fought till death because they had their SS-Tattoos and knew if the russians would get them it would have been Siberia or most certainly worse.

I don't know nothing about superior SS-Power.

And no, i don't think adding special forces like the brandenburger were one of Huberts birghtest ideas. In fact, i hate them in a grand strategical game like SC2. Same goes for anti-tank and anti-air units. These units (and even SS) would be ok, if Hubert would have made a Panzer General Ultimate-Edition. But unfortunatly there is no decent game designer out there to continue SSI's legendary work. Sad but true.

[ February 10, 2008, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[arado234]

PPH,I do agree that our absolute control of the air was probably the major deciding factor in WW2,I dont agree totaly with your comment about Western troops not being up to par with their german counterparts.Ive read quite a few books(long left flank being one)where canadian troops more than held there own against all german troops(not always supported by air or Artty.).Usually the SS formations had better equipment than there western counterparts.That alone had a huge influence on the outcome of a battle.Having confidence in your weapons makes a big difference on how hard you tend to fight.

Remember when the Germans were on the advance in the early years they usually had control of the air.I dont believe for one minute that had Germany not taken control of the air that France would have fallen as fast as it did(or at all if the Allies had defended properly).

Yes some of the Waffen SS units were the best there was at combat,but to make a blanket statement that UK/Can.troops didnt make much difference is absolutely wrong.Im sure all the Americans in this forum would agree about the U.S.troops as well.

As far as adding more Artty. to the Russians do you think it would be better to just give the Russian ground units an actual upgrade capability for defence and attack rather than add more units?I think if you add to many units the game is going to get to cluttered.Some here think it is already.

Your retreat idea sounds good but since these units represent corps or armys its hard to envision that many troops all falling back at the same time in unison.The fact that destroyed units can be built back cheaper (provided they were at a certian supply level)im guessing is supposed to represent the fact that some units that were attacked did "retreat to form the bases of the new unit being built.

[Scook]

If there needs to be more tech, more units, THEN, the map size needs to be increased (ie the scale needs to be decreased), and the number of turns needs to change (one week turns). Heck, give me "My Pretty Pony" units for all nations, and give me stacking. Then call this something else, maybe HoI, or whatever, because it won't be resembling Strategic Command I know.

[arado234]

Imo your Right Scook,this game is at its max as far as selection of units is concerned.

I guess you could impliment what PPH is saying about having SS units in the game by just having an option(like sacking a commander for a better one)that asks if you want to upgrade to an SS army.This wouldnt create anymore overall units but just add something that did have a pretty big effect on combat.The problem is what do you give the Allies in return.Since adding more units(imo)is a bad idea,Maybe a higher Ind.and Prod.capability?What does everyone else think?

[SeaMonkey]

I think there is no resonance in this thread, the game engine should concentrate on the Pacific mechanics.

Is that simple enough?

[jon_j_rambo]

SS units need added, simple as that.

Far as fighting ability, what's this about Western Allies being weak? We had to fight on another continent. Imagine the Germans trying to invade Pennsylvania. There should be adjustment of "where" the battle is taking place. "Home" cities would have alot more defenses due to the locals & fanatics kickin' in. Buntas didn't do so hot in Libya as in example, yet defending Berlin, different story.

[MajorRH]

IMO - having more units to work with in MOD development is a good thing. It does afford greater opportunity in MOD design without having to compromise. The current stock line-up of unit types in WAW is pretty extensive and yes you can modify them in any number of ways.

However, I think a further 2 or 3 "User Defined Units" in each of Land, Air and Naval would do the trick here. The additional units become more relevant when the scale of your game is reduced from Army/Corps to Division/Brigade/Batallion levels.

The following is my current (additional) unit wish list:
Land - Militia, Garrison/Static, Mountain
Air - Naval Attack Groups, Recon, Medium Bomber (thereby having both Heavy and Medium Bomber types)
Naval - Torpedo Boat (Flottilas)

Naval Mine-laying and Mine-sweeping units would be interesting (future design challenge thread entry-this would entail more than just units).

I like the idea of some dedicated User Defined Units.

MajorRH

[Scook]

I will agree with you on that, MajorRH. Having 3-5 slot for user defined units for modding would be exceptional. If it could be done so they dont show up on the unit build list would be outstanding.

SC2 (and WaW, for the most part) is one of the most balanced games I have played and comes down to each indiviual's choices, so I would like to see the base game remain as is. Give modders the ablity to build the proverbial better mousetrap, no downside in that.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

A comment from Hubert on this subject would be real interesting. Especially now then the new expansion have been announced.

[Hubert Cater]

With the PDE engine in the works it has been updated to allow modders to delist unwanted unit types for a campaign, i.e. so they do not show up as available builds in game and as desired. For completely customizable and user defined units this is something that is on my list but unlikely to be implemented until the next major engine overhaul.

Hubert

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

Thx a lot for your scarily fast answer. :eek:

Just a question, does that mean we’ll have more unit slots then today?

[Hubert Cater]

To be honest I am not sure how it will all work out in the end as it will be a little ways off from today and things may change.

[Honch]

I agree with PPH on all counts, its stuff I have been calling for since SC2 was first released. I plan on adapting my mod to WAW but it can't be done until we have a true division level map for 1939 FALL WEISS. The current map scale is to large to include many things, even artillery and special forces are not realistic.

Once the new map is avaialable with all of the AI scripting I will adapt my mod which includes:

1. Garrison/Militias replacing engineers. These will be used to simulate British Home Guard, Volkstrum, SS Militias, Territorial units etc.
2. A-bomb replacing rockets.
3. More events such as annexations of territory by Germany and Italy, Free France, various other historical events.
4. Addition of more countries such as Croatia, Netherlands and Slovakia.
5. Addition of more cities and forts such as Manchester, Naples, Izmir etc.
6. Historical OOB including expanded navies and armies of ALL nations.

All we need is a bigger map!

[MajorRH]

Honch: I have painfully built northern France, Benelux and all of UK at 15 km scale for division level action (for my Sea Lion Mod). It's one big map!

My big nagging question is whether 15 km is the right scale!? It seems right from research and Mod play testing.

All of Europe would be EPIC!

[Joshua22]

It would be indeed epic. Mind you, big, epic games are not everybodies taste. More, bigger, larger... is not always "better".
I remember a game that had such large scenarios that just one turn could easily take a day.

[Cantona66]

Honch, i really looking forward when/if you will complete yout WAW mod, i have played your SCmod many many times and really enjoyed it!

[Honch]

I really can't wait to see the Sealion MOD but yes, 15km per tile is not what I was looking for for all of Europe. I think that the currewnt FALL WEISS scale reduced by 25-40% would be perfect. I know that there has been an A3R MOD with the perfect map scale (nice work) but there would be too much work to add back the roads, terrain and colors etc.

[MajorRH]

Hey Joshua22 and Honch, I hear you on that. in building the Sea Lion MOD, I played with various scales.

In the end, I went with the 15 km per square scale to allow some decent movement/play options in South Eastern England (namely the areas south of London), the Channel and Northern French Coast. On a divisional level, even this scale is unit dense based on historical dispositions.

I have found that if the Germans achieve the beachhead (not easy), and begin to move North, the Map opens up big time. If the US and Commonwealth intervene in force, the second phase becomes a big battle of maneuver. Part of me likes this, however, at this scale I feel I am missing something. There seems to be alot of open area at this scale. Probably the need for additional static defence units and follow-up German units to fill some of the voids. Although artistic license is always fair in a "what if" scenario, I am trying to stick to available historical forces as much as possible.

If I ever finish this, I would like to collaborate and build an appropriate scale map of Europe which can be used for any number of divisional scale mods.