Survey: How much should they charge for SC2?

[jon_j_rambo]

Hello Fellow Wargaming Guys,

I wanted to take a quick survey on my own accord out of curiousity: How much would you pay for SC2? How much should Battlefront charge? What would be fair?

How much would I pay? I would pay ALOT of money for a really cool game. (couple hundred dollars, believe it or not). I've played SC so damn much it's incredible return on $25. A round of golf is $50 nowadays, & that's for 5-hours of entertainment. I've played a sick amount of SC (don't even want to count the hours or I'd freak out). I see "classic", replayable games as a lifetime asset. I'd pay $200 for an awesome wargame that I get months/years of enjoyment from. Games that I can actually remember having a HUGE value to me where I got $200 of entertainment out of: Panzer General I & II (the rest sucked), Sid Meier's Gettysburg (Antietem sucked though), & Age of Empires come to mind. Notice how some sequels do suck? Panzer General got weak after the 2nd one, can't really explain it. Sid's add on "Antietem" had terrible playablity, the Southerner's were wiped out everytime in a historical correct manner :(

How much should Battlefront charge? SC was $25, I think they should at least charge $35. Does that $10 really make a difference to you? "New" games retail cost $40+ (at release, & don't get discounted for awhile).

On the otherhand games that I don't play are worthless to me (that's most of them). It's like buying a music-CD or movie-DVD that I don't play/listen to, I usually just throw them in the trash.

I guess I'm extreme. Games are either worthless, or have a reward value of $200 to me. Not realistic to marketing/sales.

Battlefront, I'd charge at least $35. It's a classic economic problem: potential lost sales versus 33% more profit per unit shipped.

Rambo suggests $35

[ April 14, 2004, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Sombra]

Hi Rambo, 35$ for me isn´t to much considering the amount of time I have spend on SC. At least if Hubert (or Battlefront) shows as much commitment to improve the game after it is kicked out of the door as they did for the first SC.

Nice would be a download option for the whole game a la galactic civilization. Because if I order it directly from the USA living in Germany. I have to pay shipment, Taxes etc and suddenly 35$ are more like 60$ when it gets here.

I would even preorder it now to show my fate in Huberts design.

[jon_j_rambo]

Sombra --- Yes, true gamers will pay good bucks for quality considering how much time we play them. A couple of patches to SC would be worth big cash to me. Get rid of those forced Air Intercepts! Didn't think about shipping charges for overseas players. In the States, we don't pay taxes yet for internet smile.gif At least, I'm pretty sure, politicians are trying to break that up.

[kossuth]

i could easy pay 50 bucks, but as sombra says.
With shipping it will probably be too much.

So i will wait till its in store paying the 50 bucks there. I think SC costed 40 bucks here in sweden in the store.

[JerseyJohn]

An important consideration is the very greatly expanded scenario editor.

It sounds like what we've got now is practically a War Game Construction Kit -- which I recall somebody actually asking for, once upon a time. :D

[UgediBugedi]

I would pay $50.

[jon_j_rambo]

Can you believe the customer is bidding the price up! The point is, we want quality, patches, kick ass games, & are willing to pay for it!

[zappsweden]

I would also pay $50-$70 on one condition, GAME BALANCE. I have seen too many games with superb features and superb game ideas being destroyed by either bad balance or a unfriendly interface (clicking fest).

[Exel]

I would pay the full price (which is between 50 and 60 euros here), but 35€ would sound like a more reasonable price. The fans will pay anything, but you want to sell the game to a bigger audience too.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I am for downloadable, as it appears it is the direction niche wargaming should take.

I would rather not spend more than 50 bucks Canadian for anything.
Beyond 50 bucks Canadian, you are risking making me miserable just watching the other guys playing.

If the game is made a downloadable, I will likely be one of the guys tying up bandwidth right from the start.
If it requires shipping from the US, odds are I will be waiting a LOT longer than I wish.

And with everyone playing SC2, I doubt I will get in many games of SC1 online either (which will suck).

As SC is now on sale here in Canada in retail, I am naturally hoping if it can't go downloadable, you at least make a significant push to get it on Canadian shelves the same month it appears in the US.

Come on Hubert, you is a Canuck, you gotta cut us some slack smile.gif

[CraigRS]

I think $35 to $40 should be the max. Also I think say $39.99 for the cd shippped to you and $34.99 if you download it. I prefer the download method but I also think there should be a price break if for nothing else the fact that they don't need to make a cd, ect.

[Yohan]

$40 USD and downloadable and I buy day one!

[SeaMonkey]

With HC's proven track record, $50. For those that are squeamish at that price, have you forgotten the added SC features of patches 1.01 through 1.06. Remember a full game editor's worth? Do you want this to be SC-last? The world could be next, but what's the incentive?

[J P Wagner]

As Rambo suggested $35 is a good price, but I will not shy away from $50 either...when I think of the money I have blown on games like HOI, I still know that my money will be well spent on SC2....

[Exel]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:
Do you want this to be SC-last?Exactly the reason why the price tag should not be too high. $50€ will scare away most of the non-SC-fan potential buyers. The relative success of SC was explainable by it's low price tag that made the threshold of buying the game low. If the game costs $50€ instead of $35€, people will think twice before buying it, and there will be less random buyers.

($ and € are essentially the same)

[Kelly's Heroes]

I would suggest $39.95 Canadian.

This game looks to have wide appeal. Capture not only the wargamers, but also strategy fans everywhere, especially the HoI, Axis & Allies, Civ II fanes, etc.

To maximize profits the game should be released in retail in Canada at the same time as the USA just before Christmas.

Personally, I have dial-up, so I would rather purchase the game on CD with a manual.

Cheers!

[KDG]

I'd go with $35. This will get tons of repeat business, but isn't priced so high as to scare new business away.

[Jussi Köhler]

Between $35-$45, preferably a downloadable version to cut down on delivery time and costs.

[Moon]

Hehe, interesting thread. Thanks for participating in this fan-initiated market research :D

We're looking currently at a $35 release, though it's not written in stone at this point. If you get 10,000 people to post here that they'd buy it for $50, then the price might go up tongue.gif

Downloadable... probably not, but heck, who knows.

Retail release - *maybe* around christmas season in Europe, but definitely a no-no in North America until end of 2005! I have tried to explain the reasons for this often enough - in retail sales, only the retailer makes a profit; we need the direct sales to you guys to remain in business, simple as that.

Martin

[kurt88]

35 USD plus shipping seems VERY reasonable to me.

[Night]

35 is the highest I would go.

Top of the line Computer games cost $50-60 nowadays, I got battlefield1942 for $45 and it obviously cost a lot more to make then SC or SC2.

While I know I will have hours and hours of enjoyment, I would not pay anywhere near $40 or $50 for a game like this.

I can gaurentee that if you put the game for $50 you will see sales that aren't that great, only the hardcore players that have posted here will pay that kinda money for a game like this. I've been waiting for SC2 just as long as the rest of you, but you can forget $50 unless there is some serious additions to the game.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Moon:

Retail release - *maybe* around christmas season in Europe, but definitely a no-no in North America until end of 2005! I have tried to explain the reasons for this often enough - in retail sales, only the retailer makes a profit; we need the direct sales to you guys to remain in business, simple as that.

Martin IMHO this is a BIG mistake. It's not going to be released in NA for another 20 months!

Surely, you jest. . .

Well lucky Europe. . .

This game could have very wide appeal for even non-wargamers. By limiting it only to on-line sales, you will cut your profits considerably.

This game needs exposure.

Since pre-Christmas retail sales are the largest than at any other time of the year, you will lose out on the impulse buyer as well. You have to think volume.

Have you ever been in the computer games section of Walmart one month before Christmas? It is literally lined with customers tripping over themselves eager to part with their money.

You really need to re-think your marketing strategy. . .

I would have bought this game the second it came to retail.

Knowing this, you won't get my money for another 20 months (and by that time it will be reduced in price).

While you might pocket more money via on-line sales, as a Canadian, I am out of pocket a lot of money just because of shipping and duty costs.

This is yet another example of why wargames remain relatively unknown among the general population, and why they will remain a niche product. . .

I'm still shaking my head over this decision. . .

[ April 14, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Exel]

Christmas sales really aren't the Holy Grail of gaming industry as most (even game devs and publishers) seem to think. True, there's a lot of money going around that time of the year, but there's helluva lot of competition as well. For big releases Christmas is a gold mine, but smaller releases - which SC2 certainly is - tend to go down with the mass. Random Christmas shopper will buy the high-profile multi-million marketed EA product that has meters and meters of shelf space. Small releases have better chances for making profit in the other times of the year. That's the fact.

[Moon]

Kelly's Heroes, I disagree with everything that you wrote, and the fact that we're here, that SC2 will become reality this year, and that Hubert didn't sign up with EA Games to publish SC2 prove that you're wrong. smile.gif

No, "not 20 months for North American release", the game will be available by mail-order, simple as that.

No, we're not cutting our profits considerably, quite the contrary, but this isn't a place to show you profit calculations.

No, you're not out of pocket a lot of money because even with shipping and duty (IF you get charged duty and taxes at all; that's a bit of luck depending on the customer officers inspecting your package) the game will be only as much as a regular full price retail release. And heck, maybe we will offer a download, who knows.

And no, the game won't be "reduced in price" in 20 months but will cost precisely as much as we will want it to cost to reach a retail mass audience. smile.gif

Anyway, we've talked about this before I remember, so I won't repeat myself. Just read what Exel and some others (heck, even Rambo) wrote here.

Martin

[JerseyJohn]

At SC over the months I suggested several times that two packages, one a great WWII Strategy game with only a limited editor and the second a War Game Construction Kit -- would both sell and be good products.

Hubert has taken it one better and is giving us both in one, so I have no qualms about mugging an extra patsy one night to gather the extra scratch.

Personally I'm more excited about the editor than the campaign and yes, I'd like to see those continents on your planet Zorg (mentioned elsewhere) -- with it's one and only moon. :D

[ April 14, 2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:
Christmas sales really aren't the Holy Grail of gaming industry as most (even game devs and publishers) seem to think. True, there's a lot of money going around that time of the year, but there's helluva lot of competition as well. For big releases Christmas is a gold mine, but smaller releases - which SC2 certainly is - tend to go down with the mass. Random Christmas shopper will buy the high-profile multi-million marketed EA product that has meters and meters of shelf space. Small releases have better chances for making profit in the other times of the year. That's the fact. Take a look at any marketing/sales survey and you will see that the biggest profits earned by most retailers is at Christmas. This is when most people spend their money, including when they buy computer games.

I would not advocate this approach for most wargames.

However, SC2 is different. It offers wide appeal, similar to HoI and Axis & Allies.

It is NOT a niche wargame, like UV or some of Tiller's wargames might be.

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Moon:
Kelly's Heroes, I disagree with everything that you wrote, and the fact that we're here, that SC2 will become reality this year, and that Hubert didn't sign up with EA Games to publish SC2 prove that you're wrong. smile.gif

No, "not 20 months for North American release", the game will be available by mail-order, simple as that.

No, we're not cutting our profits considerably, quite the contrary, but this isn't a place to show you profit calculations.

No, you're not out of pocket a lot of money because even with shipping and duty (IF you get charged duty and taxes at all; that's a bit of luck depending on the customer officers inspecting your package) the game will be only as much as a regular full price retail release. And heck, maybe we will offer a download, who knows.

And no, the game won't be "reduced in price" in 20 months but will cost precisely as much as we will want it to cost to reach a retail mass audience. smile.gif

Anyway, we've talked about this before I remember, so I won't repeat myself. Just read what Exel and some others (heck, even Rambo) wrote here.

Martin Well, I'm not surprised that you disagree - heheh.

Hey, it's your game; but my money. . .

The reality is that SC2 won't be available to the general public in NA for 20 months. Meaning that a one year old game will arrive on retail shelves for the same price in 2005.

Yes, it will be available via mail order, but again, MOST people will be unaware of this fact. Again, only a small niche crowd will be aware of this fact, thus limiting sales.

The number one business rule is to get your product to the customer. Make it as easy as possible. Give it exposure; volume is the key.

It is quite presumptuous of you to tell me that shipping and duty will not affect my buying decision, because I am telling you that it WILL affect my buying decision.

This $35.00 game would cost me $70.00 or $80.00 Canadian with exchange/taxes/duty/shipping included. This goes beyond my game purchasing threshold, as it does for thousands of others.

I would not advocate going retail for most wargames, because they appeal to a specific wargame crowd, such as TOAW, UV, etc.

But SC2 is different - it offers WIDE appeal (which is what Hubert intended), such as HoI and Axis & Allies does, and you should cash in on that fact. Even most non-wargamers want to play a big strategy game that offers lots of decision-making.

As I mentioned, the approach you are taking for marketing SC2, is simply the wrong approach.

However, Matrix will be publishing WiTP in June and WaW later in the year (both games will be available at retail) and I will be buying them instead.

Then, in October, 2005, when SC2 is fully patched, and when there are lots of scenarios to enjoy, I will buy that game at retail.

Cheers!

[ April 14, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Exel]

Offers wide appeal? Hardly. Even HoI had a very limited target audience if compared to really major releases, and no matter how much I like SC, I can't picture it to reach quite as large an audience as HoI did.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:
Offers wide appeal? Hardly. Even HoI had a very limited target audience if compared to really major releases, and no matter how much I like SC, I can't picture it to reach quite as large an audience as HoI did. HoI is a big success despite how buggy that game was at release.

Despite HoI's problems, people still play it because they want a big strategy wargame to play.

Just visit Paradox's forums and you'll see for yourself.

SC2 looks to be far superior to hoI.

Maybe SC won't reach a large target audience, but SC2 will.

I have played wargames for a couple of decades now; played them all. I've been in business; seen what works and what has failed.

And I am also aware of what people want today; they want a big strategy wargame like SC2.

Why do you think Matrix is making UV, WiTP, WaW and EiA? Because people are tired of the RTS craze.

Sometimes we need to think outside the box. . .

Cheers!

[Moon]

Kelly's Heroes, I like your sig line. smile.gif "I know nothing" - Little GafferI will end this by repeating what I said at the end of our last discussion about this - you're happy (in 20 months), we're happy, heck even Matrix will be happy, things are working as they should.

Martin

[Exel]

Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:
HoI is a big success -- Just visit Paradox's forums and you'll see for yourself.Hehe. Funny you should mention it. Haven't you ever run into some "Exel" guy on those forums? tongue.gif I used to do a whole lot of modding for the game, and was even in the Beta dev team for a while doing the 1.06 patch.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Moon:
Kelly's Heroes, I like your sig line. smile.gif </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"I know nothing" - Little GafferI will end this by repeating what I said at the end of our last discussion about this - you're happy (in 20 months), we're happy, heck even Matrix will be happy, things are working as they should.

Martin </font>[/QUOTE]Heheh - glad you like it :D

As I recall at the end of our last discussion, when SC arrived at retail I bought it AND Combat Mission because I didn't have to pay shipping/duty/exchange rates, etc, via online only sales.

Compare the fact that I bought TWO of your games at retail vs the fact that I would not have bought ANY of your games via online ONLY buying.

How does that stack up??

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:
HoI is a big success -- Just visit Paradox's forums and you'll see for yourself.Hehe. Funny you should mention it. Haven't you ever run into some "Exel" guy on those forums? tongue.gif I used to do a whole lot of modding for the game, and was even in the Beta dev team for a while doing the 1.06 patch. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Exel:

Well, your statements just proved my point about HoI.

With the latest patch (v1.06) and with CORE, I may just re-install the game again, and give it a whirl.

The CORE Mod now has 1600 NEW events which should spice up HoI quite a bit.

Cheers!

[ April 14, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I have a secret weapon, her name is Margaret smile.gif

She's a gal I know in the US.

If my only choice is to purchase via online, no sweat, I have my secret weapon.

I will NOT be getting screwed by customs.

Canada Customs can sit on this and rotate smile.gif

I don't mind paying a reasonable cost for shipping, but I ain't getting double dipped at the border.

I never pay more than a couple of extra bucks for remailing from the US.

I sure ain't waiting a year or so for retail on the shelf for the game.
Sure SC is now on sale for a nice 19 bucks, and no doubt SC2 will "someday" be the same.

Screw some day I say hehe.

You guys might know yer warfare, but sometimes I think you guys forget there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.

[roman uk]

Do a good job and I'll pay for it, 10-20 quid +/-doesnt really make much of a difference either way. As someone above said so eloquently, a good game you'll play for years, but most end up in the bin. Perhaps thats why 35-50 makes sense; too many throw aways and too few keepers.

The Id guys made a lot of money via direct sales (remember the Doom revolution?). Id rather give the money to you the game makers then the middle men.

..editor, weather, increased units, events,etc.
Please make the supply rules harsh: allow your units to be out of supply to your peril!

Mobile forces, supply, projection of force, good and bad guys; WW2 is great subject matter.

Cheers

[ April 14, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: roman uk ]

[Yohan]

Originally posted by Moon:
We're looking currently at a $35 release, though it's not written in stone at this point. If you get 10,000 people to post here that they'd buy it for $50, then the price might go up tongue.gif

Downloadable... probably not, but heck, who knows.

Martin Make it downloadable and I'll pay $40 no probs

[Night]

20 months to the North American release?!?!!

I really don't think I'll still be interested in this after another Year and a half... That is really really ridicilous.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:
With the latest patch (v1.06) and with CORE, I may just re-install the game again, and give it a whirl.

The CORE Mod now has 1600 NEW events which should spice up HoI quite a bit.I would recommend the Starfire mod instead. It puts the emphasis on historical accuracy and reworks the combat system in a truly outstanding way! :eek: CORE is a big ahistorical mess...

[/offtopic]

[Sombra]

@ KH ... If you have time drop by the forums of stardock another small publisher. Like Battlefront they prefer selling their games directly. Their reasons are simple: They win as much as 8x times direct order vs. retail up to 10x when the customer downloads their programms. If you are going retail as a small company you have to look for a good publisher, sometimes problems arise to claim your share etc. Games like SC have a pretty much hardcore following though the targeted customer groups are pretty much aware of the games Battlefront offers.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Sombra:
They win as much as 8x times direct order vs. retail up to 10x when the customer downloads their programms. If you are going retail as a small company you have to look for a good publisher, sometimes problems arise to claim your share etc. Games like SC have a pretty much hardcore following though the targeted customer groups are pretty much aware of the games Battlefront offers.True, but on the other hand the game might reach a larger audience by retail sales, and thus the overall profit might just become bigger than by safe but limited direct online sales. Paradox is another small publisher, and it has taken the retail route and done remarkably well considering the rather niche target group of their games. Direct sales may produce more prefit per copy, but they wont attract potential buyers beyond those who are already aware of Battlefront.com or read quality gaming mags / sites. Retail sales can reach those all-important "random" buyers.

[jon_j_rambo]

Looks like I need to clean up an issue, make solid comments, & do my job: "Not available in North America for 18-20 months" --- What the hell (heaven) are you talking about? "Are you stupid or something" ---from Forrest Gump. The promo info says Q4-2004, what do I care about retail sales as a customer, I already found out SC online. Kelly'sHereos, breakout your debit card & order the thing you cheap bastard. If you sit around waiting for the retail version, I'll be playing SC3-Pacific by then smile.gif

The retailer steals all the money, you dummies. BF can drink mountain dew & burn CD's themselves, why give the cheese to them if you're BF? You want BF to make jack, so they'll crank out some cool games for us. Else, Hubert has to work for 'da Man (EA-Electronic Arts). If Hubert was working commerical rather than the little guys, some idiot manager would have him making "Barbie's new skatepark", a 25,000,000 seller, but no real strategy wargames.

Walmart (biggest market cap companey on the planet, a retailer for you Euros), doesn't pay their bills for 6-months. You gotta have some deep pockets to work that chain before the game even begins.

Far as custom's & duty for foreigners to buy US products, I think that's great! I'm glad you foriengers are paying out the ass by YOUR government. You foreingers work for peanuts, trying to undercut our jobs: India, China, Mexico, Russia, whatever.......screw you, enjoy the socialist taxes. European Union cries all the time about American Monopolies, pattons, copyrights, labor laws, etc... You must protect the inventors, give incentives, & let the Capitalist Model work. Far as Canada, you guys brag about your Healthcare & cut ours down....sure, because you pay taxes out the ass. Uncle Sam screws me enough, but not that bad. I wish Uncle Sam & George Bush would put some Terifs (pun intended) on your products coming into the States.

Rambo knows Distribution Sales
Rambo knows High Finance
Rambo knows alot of stuff

[ April 15, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Exel]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:
Far as custom's & duty for foreigners to buy US products, I think that's great! I'm glad you foriengers are paying out the ass by YOUR government. You foreingers work for peanuts, trying to undercut our jobs: India, China, Mexico, Russia, whatever.......screw you, enjoy the socialist taxes. European Union cries all the time about American Monopolies, pattons, copyrights, labor laws, etc... You must protect the inventors, give incentives, & let the Capitalist Model work. Far as Canada, you guys brag about your Healthcare & cut ours down....sure, because you pay taxes out the ass. Uncle Sam screws me enough, but not that bad. I wish Uncle Sam & George Bush would put some Terifs (pun intended) on your products coming into the States.:rolleyes:

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

"I really don't think I'll still be interested in this after another Year and a half... That is really really ridicilous."

Hmm, I can't relate to that.

I don't buy games unless they are timeless.

By that I mean, if this game came out today or in 5 years, I would either like it or not like it.
And if I like it, I will buy it.

But I will only buy games if i can buy them, and still like them even if I have had it 5 years.

If HC had no plans to release SC2, it would only mean I would still be playing SC1 5 years from now.

I bought all 4 versions of Heroes of Might and Magic eh. If they had never done anything after the first one, I would still enjoy playing it.
Darned fun game.
But 2, then 3 (with a lot of add ons) and then 4 were always "better" in some way. True the company was shamelessly milking the fans, but the game IS still always improved.
It might have just been cosmetically enhanced, but it was still always better.
And it was my choice whether or not to pay for it after all.

The only danger with doddling on a game, is the risk someone else might see your current creation and say hmm not bad, I can improve on that, and then do it.
Wait to long, and someone steals your thunder.

I have actually seen a few cases where you snooze you lose has happened.

[Bill101]

Rambo wrote:

"If you sit around waiting for the retail version, I'll be playing SC3-Pacific by then".

Hopefully we'll all be playing it by then! smile.gif

I think some of the critics miss the point. Battlefront's marketing strategy works, and the success of Combat Mission is the proof.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sombra:
They win as much as 8x times direct order vs. retail up to 10x when the customer downloads their programms. If you are going retail as a small company you have to look for a good publisher, sometimes problems arise to claim your share etc. Games like SC have a pretty much hardcore following though the targeted customer groups are pretty much aware of the games Battlefront offers.True, but on the other hand the game might reach a larger audience by retail sales, and thus the overall profit might just become bigger than by safe but limited direct online sales. Paradox is another small publisher, and it has taken the retail route and done remarkably well considering the rather niche target group of their games. Direct sales may produce more prefit per copy, but they wont attract potential buyers beyond those who are already aware of Battlefront.com or read quality gaming mags / sites. Retail sales can reach those all-important "random" buyers. </font>[/QUOTE]Exel:

Exactly!

You hit the nail directly on the head.

I would not advocate retail for most wargames because they are a niche product.

However, as can be seen from the screenshots, Hubert clearly intended for this game to reach a wider audience. And by the reaction I have seen from others, this game would do well among any type of gamer.

Contrary to many of us (who are on the internet and know about Battlefront), there are tens of thousands who NEVER go on the internet, who NEVER buy products on the internet, and who have NEVER heard of Battlefront or SC2. But these same people might buy SC2 if they saw it in the stores.

Even more, there are many more internet users who still won't buy online and haven't heard of Battlefront.

SC2 offers Battlefront the opportunity to reach a wider audience. Why has Axis and Allies done so well? Why is HoI being played more and more (in spite of its deficiencies?) Why has Matrix moved to retail with its games?

Again, SC2 has the potential to reach beyond the pure wargamer. In fact most of the criticisms leveled at SC2 have come from wargamers themselves, who see SC2 looking too "mainstream".

We talk about direct sales with online only purchases. However, in Europe they will get the game directly at the end of 2004.

In North America, however, we must buy it online only. We cannot expect to see it available at retail until at the end of 2005.

Heck, SC2 doesn't even have to appear on the shelves of retail stores in Canada, because there are distributors such as Military Hobbies in Canada that would carry it, and offer it nationwide to any buyers.

Most of the people posting on this forum already know about Battlefront and its games. The goal is to move beyond the "wargamer" group and expand the target audience, especially for SC2.

SC2 could be a real milk cow for Battlefront. It needs to be marketed aggressively and made readily available while the "iron is hot".

To wait a full year (until the end of 2005) to release SC2 to a wider audience (which is what Hubert intended for the game), will actually hurt sales; not help it.

As I have already stated previously, I would not advocate this approach for most wargames. But SC2 is different. And pre-Christmas retail would be the perfect time to release it.

Then after Christmas, go back to offering SC2 by online sales only.

I want SC2 to do well. The more money it makes, means that more games of this type will be made.

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Bill101:
Rambo wrote:

"If you sit around waiting for the retail version, I'll be playing SC3-Pacific by then".

Hopefully we'll all be playing it by then! smile.gif

I think some of the critics miss the point. Battlefront's marketing strategy works, and the success of Combat Mission is the proof. Heheh. . .

I won't be sitting around waiting for the retail version. :D

I not only have lots of great games to play, but there are many wargames that are going to be released this year by Matrix, that will appear at retail or through their distributors, and which I will be buying. tongue.gif

Combat Mission is a wargamer's wargame. And it has done well among wargamers.

SC2 is intended to reach a wider audience.

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

Here's a little marketing research to show how important Christmas shopping is to retailers.

The importance of Christmas sales to retailers and manufacturers is no secret -- for some retailers, holiday sales can contribute as much as 40% of their profits.

http://www.marketresearch.com/map/prod/952795.html


As most people would expect, Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) figures show shopping peaks in December. Last year retail spending increased in December compared to November, and was up by 27% overall. The largest increases occurred in department stores (up 77%), in clothing and soft goods retailing (up 47%), and in recreational goods retailing (up 35%).

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/19b46935e2dc13beca256b2c00004b40?OpenDocument

[Exel]

Kelly's Heroes: Please read my post about Christmas sales on the first page of this thread, 22nd post. Christmas sales are great for big releases, but smaller ones get easily run over by the huge marketing campaigns of the bigger ones.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:
Kelly's Heroes: Please read my post about Christmas sales on the first page of this thread, 22nd post. Christmas sales are great for big releases, but smaller ones get easily run over by the huge marketing campaigns of the bigger ones. Heheh. . .

Towards the end of November and throughout all of December, visit any EB and/or computer software section of Walmart, and you will have all your consumer sales questions answered.

Literally everything is sold off the shelves.

The hot ticket is video games.

Example:

Two brothers (aged 16 and 18) go into Walmart with their parents in December. The two brothers have played Axis and Allies for a couple of years.

The older brother spots the cover art of SC2. Hmmm, it looks very similar to wargames they have already played. Cool box. Cool art.

The younger brother becomes interested.

The two brothers hint around to their parents that they would like this game for Christmas.

Bingo! Another sale of SC2.

Later, the two brothers spread the word among all their friends about this great new strategic wargame - it's like Axis and Allies, but cooler. . .

And so on, and so on, and so on. . .

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of sales is still done at the retail level.

Between 60% to 75% of ALL shoppers still have concerns about shopping online.

Those two brothers who bought SC2 would never have bought the game online, since neither knew about Battlefront nor owned a credit card.

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

In fact I would take SC2 to the next logical level:

Turn it into a board game and make it available at the retail level in stores like Walmart and Toys R Us.

I think it would compete nicely with other board games such as Axis and Allies.

Cheers!

[Herr Kruger]

It should cost $30.

J Kruger

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:
With the latest patch (v1.06) and with CORE, I may just re-install the game again, and give it a whirl.

The CORE Mod now has 1600 NEW events which should spice up HoI quite a bit.I would recommend the Starfire mod instead. It puts the emphasis on historical accuracy and reworks the combat system in a truly outstanding way! :eek: CORE is a big ahistorical mess...

[/offtopic] </font>[/QUOTE]Exel:

What is the Starfire Mod and where can I find it?

Why is CORE a mess in your opinion?

Cheers!

[Exel]

Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:
What is the Starfire Mod and where can I find it?

Why is CORE a mess in your opinion?Starfire can be found here: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138386

CORE is a mess, in my opinion, because it has gotten out of control. There's no one really in charge and people just do whatever they like for the mod, and the result is very ahistorical. Many of the events have absolutely no sense being in a game with the scale of HoI ("German movie star flees to America, blaablaa effects"), many of them give boost or ahistorical significance to some country (like Poland, thanks to many Polish modders who just refuse to believe that Poland was easily overrun). Furthermore, the tech tree is unbalanced piece of s***. At some point - I'm not sure if they've changed it since then - the late tech tree even featured things way too futuristic for a WW2 game, like for example Mig-21 and the kind. Still, many like CORE above all else, but for a history and realism buff like me its mere existence in an annoyance.

How did this come to this? We're waay off-topic. tongue.gif

[ April 16, 2004, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Exel ]

[Kelly's Heroes]

Exel:

Off-topic?

Well, I guess we're still talking about wargames - heh

I see that Stafire is still in development - it looks like it still has a ways to go.

I agree that some events in CORE seem misplaced. Still, with 1,600 events, it still seems like the mod to choose.

The only thing it needs is for someone to go through the events and trim out some of the extraneous ones.

Cheers!

[Exel]

But CORE doesn't feature the new combat system which is totally superior to the default one. And Starfire was pretty finished already in its first release, by all means more finished and carefully thought creation than CORE ever has been.

And the subject of this thread is how much SC2 should cost, so yeah, this talk about HoI's mods is totally off-topic. tongue.gif

[Blashy]

For a one man company like HC, going retail would be like giving the game away to the stores for free.

The return on income is just not there.

Moon thouroughly explained it once how selling 100 via online or mail order is worth selling 1000+ through a retailer. And for this game I agree. It is not a hyped game, by us it sure is but through general gaming sites it is barely a blip on their radar, I read those sites every day, I've yet to hear of SC or SC2 once.

Oh as for Canada Costums, anything under 50$ is duty free, I paid none when I bought SC or many other products on eBay.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Blashy:
For a one man company like HC, going retail would be like giving the game away to the stores for free.

The return on income is just not there.

Moon thouroughly explained it once how selling 100 via online or mail order is worth selling 1000+ through a retailer. And for this game I agree. It is not a hyped game, by us it sure is but through general gaming sites it is barely a blip on their radar, I read those sites every day, I've yet to hear of SC or SC2 once.

Oh as for Canada Costums, anything under 50$ is duty free, I paid none when I bought SC or many other products on eBay. As I have mentioned, Hubert made SC2 to reach a wider audience. How do you do that?

Exposure. . .

While per game returns at retail won't be as high, the sheer volume of sales will help off-set that. This game has potential for wide appeal.

But more importantly, at some retail locations you are making it easy for the consumer to buy it. The vast majority of people still will NOT buy products online.

Many products are sold via impulse buying.

But more importantly: When someone buys SC2 via retail, they are then made aware of OTHER PRODUCTS Battlefront makes. So that consumer may then buy other computer wargames published by Battlefront.

For example: I bought SC at retail. With the money I saved (not buying online), I then bought Combat Mission. I was made aware of this forum, and well. . . here I am. . . :D

So: TWO games bought at retail vs NO games bought online. I then spread word about the games via word of mouth.

What does this tell you??

:rolleyes:

I would not recommend this approach for any other type of wargame, except for SC2 and perhaps for Matrix's WaW.

The real paradox is this: with SC2 remaining an online only game, means it is being targeted to wargmers; the same guys who are criticizing it for looking too mainstream. Yet, looking mainstream is what was intended, so it could reach a wider audience. But being available only online, means. . .

:rolleyes:

It's good to know about customs. However, the shipping and exchange rate will still double the price of the game for us Canucks. We need the game to be available via a local distributor such as Military Hobbies.

This is not rocket science. . .

Cheers!

[Blashy]

I've seen a handfull critize the game (2-3) and the look of it.

It won't double it. When I bought it online, it came out to a total of 12$ CDN more from buying it in the US. A retailer would charge me for the exchange rate (charging higher to make a profit), charge me for the shipping he paid (charging higher to make a profit) and then charge me for the cost of his rental fees, employee salaries. I've bought online 30+ items so far and I've saved over 30% or more everytime.

Buying online is the best time that's happen in retail for the consumer, at least through my experiences.

And you have to understand, if they are not going straight to retail, they have their numbers crunched and know it won't work for them right away.

#1 would be all of the people here, 50+% might buy it from the store, making FurySoft loose a lot of money that would usually go straight to their pockets since these people are willing to purchase direct. And that is the main reason I beleive they do not go retail from the get go. I know it would be my reason. Sell a product for 30$ online, make a 20$ profit, sell retail make a 2$ profit, exaust all your online buyers and then go for the retail grabbers and convert them to online buyers for the next version, lol

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Blashy:
I've seen a handfull critize the game (2-3) and the look of it.] More than that have criticized it. And those are the vocal ones. Plenty of lurkers feel the same way.

Personally, I like the look - it has popular appeal.

It won't double it. When I bought it online, it came out to a total of 12$ CDN more from buying it in the US. A retailer would charge me for the exchange rate (charging higher to make a profit), charge me for the shipping he paid (charging higher to make a profit) and then charge me for the cost of his rental fees, employee salaries. I've bought online 30+ items so far and I've saved over 30% or more everytime.Sorry. Only $12??

What calculator are you using?

Heheh. . .

Shipping to Canada alone is $8.00 US. That works out to be $12.00 Canadian. And we still haven't figured in the exchange rate for the game (usually 45% more).

It is mucho Dinaro, my friend. . .

Buying online is the best time that's happen in retail for the consumer, at least through my experiences.Maybe from your experience. But consumer studies have repeatedly shown that THE VAST NUMBER OF CONSUMERS DO NOT BUY ONLINE.

And you have to understand, if they are not going straight to retail, they have their numbers crunched and know it won't work for them right away.The best time is one month before Christmas. Those who buy on online would probably do so anyway.

Whereas the sales at retail is PROFIT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN OTHERWISE.

This does not include the extra word of mouth, and other games these customers might buy from Battlefront.

Retail offers spin-off effects. . .

#1 would be all of the people here, 50+% might buy it from the store, making FurySoft loose a lot of money that would usually go straight to their pockets since these people are willing to purchase direct. And that is the main reason I beleive they do not go retail from the get go. I know it would be my reason. Sell a product for 30$ online, make a 20$ profit, sell retail make a 2$ profit, exaust all your online buyers and then go for the retail grabbers and convert them to online buyers for the next version, lolThis sounds fine.

However,

SC2 is being made readily available for European customers at the end of this year. No online sales for them. . .

People on this forum already know about the game.

At retail, you are reaching gamers that you would
not otherwise reach. So that $2.00 is a profit because those buyers would not have bought the game online. Like me.

Why not make the game available in Canada via Military Hobbies? It uses mail order. Make it convenient for the customer. I realize this is a radical idea, but it might just work :rolleyes:

And round and round we go. . .

[ April 16, 2004, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[fischkopf]

To be honest, I'd pay $100 for the game.

I'd rather not... but I'd pay it. WWII grand strategy -- I love that stuff.

[Elmo]

Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:
Heheh. . .

I won't be sitting around waiting for the retail version. :D

I not only have lots of great games to play, but there are many wargames that are going to be released this year by Matrix, that will appear at retail or through their distributors, and which I will be buying. tongue.gif

I hate to burst your bubble but Matrix announced a while back that they are going to online sales only. No more retail stores for them.

[KDG]

Hubert should just do pay for play method. Toss in $1 each time you play it. This should catch on just like Divx(ha ha)

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Elmo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:
Heheh. . .

I won't be sitting around waiting for the retail version. :D

I not only have lots of great games to play, but there are many wargames that are going to be released this year by Matrix, that will appear at retail or through their distributors, and which I will be buying. tongue.gif

I hate to burst your bubble but Matrix announced a while back that they are going to online sales only. No more retail stores for them. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, I hate to burst your bubble - heheh

In Canada, all Matrix games will be available through Military Hobbies, which prices their games in C$ with FREE shipping anywhere in Canada.

Matrix has listened to their customers and has setup distributors in most countries to make it convenient and less expensive to buy their games.

But as I have repeatedly stated in this thread - most wargames should NOT be in retail stores.

SC2 and Matrix's WaW SHOULD be in retail stores.

At the very least make SC2 available through Military Hobbies in Canada.

[ April 16, 2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Elmo]

You're not bursting my bubble - heheh.

I don't give a rat's a$$ where you buy your games. My impression was that Matrix was only selling online now. If that is incorrect, fine, but since I buy online from them and Battlefront it's all the same to me.

[Elmo]

double post

[Canuck]

I'll pay the same price I paid for the last one-$25 and not a penny more

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Elmo:
I don't give a rat's a$$ where you buy your games. Then why are you trying to burst my perfectly formed, perfectly coloured, and perfectly aerodynamic bubble?

Heheheh. . . :D

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by fischkopf:
To be honest, I'd pay $100 for the game.

I'd rather not... Well, thanks for adding that last part--agreed, I'd also rather not!

http://www.szilagyi.us/images/shocked.jpg

[ April 16, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Kelly's Heroes]

And. . .

The L'il Gaffer says:

"I don't have to pay a penny. . ."

http://www.sexinfo101.com/jokes/funnypix/baby07.jpg

[JerseyJohn]

Kelly

You are truly a man of deep insights! :D

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:
Kelly

You are truly a man of deep insights! :D I owe it all to my current team of legal advisors:

http://www.twistedmonkey.org/images/funny_pictures/4de6b9ca2622bc2d360d4f6fbf709ba8.jpg

[Kelly's Heroes]

And to my current accounting whiz, Bosco:

http://www.twistedmonkey.org/images/funny_pictures/0c3eba214d233cea788706d812036422.jpg

[Kelly's Heroes]

And to my college professor:

http://www.sexinfo101.com/jokes/funnypix/baby11.gif

[JerseyJohn]

They remind me a lot of the last six or seven occupants of the White House and their various assistants -- except they've got much more honest and intelligent expressions than any of our esteemed leaders, but then going to places like Yale and also becoming a Rhodes Scholar like Billy would naturally disolve a lot of I. Q. points.

Oooops, time for me to be dragged off by the F. B. I., for this Thread to be locked, and for you to seek professional help!

-- A ridiculous statement if ever there was one, whenever someone says that to me -- and they say it so often, which is really baffling -- I always ask I need a plumber? tongue.gif

http://www.drleons.com/freud/freud001.gif http://www.louisvillenebraska.com/images/plumber.gif

I'll bet if anyone had asked old Sigmund if, in that photo above left, he'd been holding a phalic sybold he'd have gotten all worked up. "Dumkopf, I was smoking a cigar--if it had been a phalic symbol it would have been much, much larger, a stogie at the very least!"

Anyway, you're a man who obviously loves kids and this neighborhood is infested with them. But very few rodents as there are many cats running about. My wife and I love it, we go for walks through the park and wade through little kids and dogs, both species trying to bite us at the same time.

Oh yeah, I think they should charge, uh, $40 dollars -- do I hear $35? -- $35, excellent.

Why the hell is that guy saying he'd pay $100 -- Hubert, is that you under a different name or what? :D

Well, it being 2:20 a.m. and all I guess going to sleep is a good game plan.

I bid you and all your bizarre kids a pleasant night. ;)

$37.24-- yeah, that would be okay by me. :cool:

[ April 17, 2004, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Battlefront.com]

You know that a topic has been discussed to death when pictures of babies are being posted smile.gif I will close this thread now, but am going to abuse my position as admin to get the last word in smile.gif

Kelly's Heroes, you're very vocal about something you don't seem to understand very well, but that's ok. I just wish you were listening a bit better to others who are trying to explain why you're wrong.

BTW, nobody said that SC2 will be available in European retail right away. Probably not.

Martin