Modding - a quick overview

[Battlefront.com]

Obviously you guys are quite interested in what can be changed before you've even seen what we have to offer. We expect nothing less from you :D So here is a quick rundown of what can and can't be modded:


Textures:
Vehicles
Soldiers
Small Arms
Heavy Weapons
Terrain (including Buildings, bunkers, etc.)
User Interface
Backdrops (horizon graphics)

Sound:
All

Models:
None

TO&E:
None

Orders of Battle:
Inherent to the Purchase Screen

I think I got that covered!

Now, some notes about the actual Mods. Textures for a model are now stored within a single file. For example, a light machinegun might be textured for side, bottom, top, buttplate, bipod front, bipod side, and other minor touches. This means we have more graphical details on weapons without increasing VRAM (at least not inherently). It also makes editing graphics a lot easier since all you will have to do is locate one file and change stuff.

We are planning on allowing multiple vehicle textures within the same game for the same vehicle. This means you might have 5 tanks and 3 different texture sets. We are not sure if we are going to hardcode the number or allow CM to use whatever it made available to it. That has a lot to do with VRAM usage so it isn't simply a creative queation (i.e. there are technical aspects to consider).

Steve

[ August 25, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Michael Dorosh]

When you say small arms, you mean the composition of weapons within a squad? Or just the textures?

[David I]

I'm getting a little modder's chubby!
DavidI

[Battlefront.com]

Note that I put "Small Arms" under "Textures". What you're asking about is specified under "TO&E". You do the math :D

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:
Note that I put "Small Arms" under "Textures". What you're asking about is specified under "TO&E". You do the math :D

Steve BAH! Nice edit! :mad:

[Battlefront.com]

The info was always there... you just didn't see it. All I edited in was the bolding of the groups. Nice try! :D

Steve

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:[snip] So here is a quick rundown of what can and can't be modded:

Textures:
Vehicles
Soldiers
Small Arms
Heavy Weapons
Terrain (including Buildings, bunkers, etc.)
User Interface
Backdrops (horizon graphics)
[snipp]
Yeepie !

*rushes to the drawing board, start thinking about a design*

[Philippe]

If it isn/t too late, please try to have the left and right sides of things covered by different graphics.

I'm really sick of seeing tanks numbered 808 because the number appears backwards on one side.

And I can't stand seeing American soldiers with the same shoulder patch on both shoulders.

And this is a minor point:

Stug drivers tended to wear grey uniforms, but tank drivers wore other things. There are lots of scenarios where you get tanks, stugs, and recon vehicles showing up at the same time. If you use the same uniform for all of them, one of those groups is going to be wearing the wrong clothes. I want my German assault guns driven by guys in grey, and my tanks driven by guys in black or camo, and I want to see it at the same time!

Please make it possible to have French fighting French (Vichy vs. Free French), Italians fighting Italians (the guerilla civil war in Northern Italy in '45), and Spanish fighting Spanish (SCW).
[There's a great Spanish sound mod at CMMODS -- voice acting is fantastic, though the sound quality is not so good -- I'll bet you'd have no trouble getting them to repeat the performance with good recording equipment. There's a thread at the Punta de Lanza website].

I'm not much of one for quick battles, but it would be nice to allow a scenario editor to select any kind of unit from any nationality, and then specify what language the troops would speak.
And if you add the possibility of allowing that scenario editor to create custom squads from existing weapons, editors could mod their own Spanish Civil War, Chaco War, or WWI scenarios. And it wouldn't mess up the Quick Battles as long as this was a scenario editor-only feature.

And speaking of WWI, how about some poison gas and respirators? And an artillery setting that lets us fire off a two week bombardment before turn one?

[MikeyD]

"Textures for a model are now stored within a single file."

Sounds like how IL-2 does it. I think they supply a blue-line template for modders to work off of (hint-hint).

If (IF!) dynamic lighting is included that should make for some pretty amazing looking stuff!

Phillippe, I gave up on 808 and 101 vehicle numbering long ago. That cure seemed to be more annoying than the problem. I think I've played CM so long I now read the left sides of passing vans backwards! ;)

[hellfish]

So.. pretty much the exact same stuff that was moddable in CM1 is moddable in CMx2?

Nothing else?

That's kind of a bummer... I'd have liked to at least be able to mod/create building models and other landscape features.

[gautrek]

Originally posted by MikeyD:
"Textures for a model are now stored within a single file."

Sounds like how IL-2 does it. I think they supply a blue-line template for modders to work off of (hint-hint).


Can someone explain this to me a bit more.
As i have never looked at modding any other game.
And does this mean that they can still be modded using PSP or PS.

[Brent Pollock]

IL-2/Pacific Fighters sends an "unpainted/white painted" file for each aircraft. That's as far as my knowledge goes, because I am "modding-impaired" :(

It also has detailed unit identity graphics. For instance, if you have three flights of four aircraft, they will appear numbered 1 through 12, with the first one even having any special "flight leader" symbols, like the Luftwaffe "<< + -" thing. Each flight has to have the same aircraft type, though, much like CMX1 platoons.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by gautrek:
Can someone explain [the IL-2 comparison] to me a bit more.
As i have never looked at modding any other game.
And does this mean that they can still be modded using PSP or PS. Well AFAIK, IL-2 works on a single image file. One bigger bmp or application specific graphic file presents *all* textures for a specific model.

Look at this image here, on the right.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/danielroger/jeux_video/il2/tutorial/calques_metal.jpg

And you shall understand. It's like a graphic file that "wrap" all around the 3d model. It has numerous advantages, like one file per model, easier skin swapping, plus numerous littles tidbits here and there.

If CMx2 really use such a system (which IMO would make sense), CM modders will have to get use to it a bit, but it's a piece of cake once you get it right, and it's a lot easier to work with. Well, maybe not *a lot* easier, but far less messy when you get them by the dozens.

Also, it's easier to use alternate markings as you can simply have them wrap over this single graphic file, like layers. Say you have a specific skin for a Tiger. ---> one file. Then the game can easily take care of numbers for each vehicles (that's one additional graphic file for each vehicle) plus various contextual markings (that's one more) thus making a total that can still be far below anything we had in CMx1 (5-15 files per vehicle)

I'm thinking... it could even be not so hard to set up a small model viewing application. Now THAT would be a useful gizmo for us modsluts. :D

HTH

Cheers

[ August 26, 2005, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

[Battlefront.com]

The "all in one" texture scheeme has been around pretty much since games first started reading in graphics instead of drawing them from code. The reason we didn't do that for CMx1 has to do with the complexity of setting the system up. It was simply too much work for the time and due to the low poly count wasn't deemed necessary. Now things are different... Dan just made a wheeled vehicle that has more polies in one wheel than was in a CMBO tank :D

Since the "all in one" system is far more efficient, and VRAM more available, we are sharing a lot LESS stuff than we did in CMx1. In CMx1 there was a hard limit (11 IIRC) of how many textures you could have. We were maxed out on most vehicles for CMBB/AK. Now there is no limit that I'm aware of. This means soldiers have unique left and right arm textures, tank turrets can have unique left and right sides, and 5 different small arms won't use the same top texture. Stuff like that.

Steve

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:
So.. pretty much the exact same stuff that was moddable in CM1 is moddable in CMx2?

Nothing else?
Maybe bazookas and mortar tubes are moddable now - assuming they are part of the Space Lobster arsenal.

[Sequoia]

Multiple models of buildings would be nice too. Or at least more building types.

[Gordon]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:
Dan just made a wheeled vehicle that has more polies in one wheel than was in a CMBO tank :D

Since the "all in one" system is far more efficient, and VRAM more available, we are sharing a lot LESS stuff than we did in CMx1. In CMx1 there was a hard limit (11 IIRC) of how many textures you could have. We were maxed out on most vehicles for CMBB/AK. Now there is no limit that I'm aware of. This means soldiers have unique left and right arm textures, tank turrets can have unique left and right sides, and 5 different small arms won't use the same top texture. Stuff like that.

Steve Urrah! Sounds great.

[patboy]

Hi Steve,

I would like to know if it's possible to add wrecks in the battlefield ?

I think this is a good idea, to give a new game atmosphere, to see burning or not wrecks like we can add destroyed buildings with scenario editor.

And if it's not too late, to insert in game possibility for all modders to create their own wrecks artwork.

see pics for explanation :
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/8497/gcs00039vi.th.jpg (http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gcs00039vi.jpg)


http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5103/gcs00023px.th.jpg (http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gcs00023px.jpg)

Thanks to reply

Pat

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish:
So.. pretty much the exact same stuff that was moddable in CM1 is moddable in CMx2?

Nothing else?
Maybe bazookas and mortar tubes are moddable now - assuming they are part of the Space Lobster arsenal. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, and the fired shells, please. I like to be able to do a hi visibility mod on that! Screw realistic, I want to see that sucker arc in and hit home! I just don't see the shells as well in CMAK as I did in CMBO. It might seem silly but I really miss that added suspension of seeing the shell come in and wondering if.... Oh! That's going to be close! *CLANK*

[wunwinglow]

Originally posted by Sequoia:
Multiple models of buildings would be nice too. Or at least more building types. I agree. If we can't build our own 3D stuff (and I appreciate the reasons, sad though they are!) I hope there is going to be a much wider range of buildings to pick from. With the improvements in the graphics, multiples of the same house is going to look really REALLY REALLY weird! Unless you are fighting in Milton Keynes, of course.

Now, there's a thought....

Tim P

[Battlefront.com]

Vehicles do have wrecked states. But for the same reasons as with all other model stuff, the models themselves can not be modded. Textures can.

Pretty much everything in the 3D space can have its texture modded. The inability to do that in CMx1 was mostly due to holdover issues from when we were coding for 4MB of VRAM and needed to save wherever we could. It proved very difficult to undo this stuff for CMBB and CMAK, which is why we didn't change much for them.

Steve

[ExplodingMonkey]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:
Dan just made a wheeled vehicle that has more polies in one wheel than was in a CMBO tank :D
I cannot wait to see wheels turning on AFVs!!!!

[ExplodingMonkey]

Originally posted by wunwinglow:
multiples of the same house is going to look really REALLY REALLY weird! Unless you are fighting in Milton Keynes, of course.
...or any burb in southern California for that matter. ;)

[Michael Dorosh]

So that brings to mind a question - buildings have three textures dependent on damage.

Will vehicles - ?

ie

a) normal
b) wrecked
c) wrecked and burnt

Or perhaps wrecked and normal will be the same (since you're not modelling specific damage to vehicle models) - so you can have normal and burnt (and of course winter normal, winter burnt)...

[Andreas]

Right decision not to allow modding of TO&E.

[ColumbusOHGamer]

Hey Steve,
Will bf.c be able to provide us a list of the .bmp files and what units they are associated with? It would really help in getting the modding community going as fast as possible after CM2's release.

And sending me an advanced copy to get cmmods.com ready wouldn;t hurt either. :D :D :D

[junk2drive]

COG, After all you have done for the CM community, if BFC doesn't give you a copy I will buy you one.

[Kwazydog]

Columbus, that shouldnt be necessary as files should be named in a reasonably straight forward manner (depending on how late I made them ;) ). For instance a Pz-IVg tank might be made up of PzIVg-turret.bmp, PzIVg-Hull.bmp and PzIVg-details.bmp (details could be anything...for instance we may put the vision block glass in a seperate 'material' in order to all up to add reflection to it).

Modding should be really interesting for you guys in CMx2 by the way! The considerably more detailed vehicles are both a blessing and a nightmare, hehe. For instance, much of the detailed that had to be simulated by textures in CMx1 is now handled by the model itself (and has light reflected off it correctly by the engine of course). Thus, for instance, in CMx1 we needed to create a raised surface around an engine cover by hand giving it a 3D appearance including simulated lighting...that wont be necessary any more. On the other hand if you want to get a neat row of bolts around the top of that engine cover they will need to be *exactly* in place or they wont actually be on the raised surface.

The results though should well be worth the effort!

Dan

Disclaimer : And the Pz-IVg was just an example...it should not be taken as an indicator of CMx2 setting either way :D

[ August 29, 2005, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Disclaimer : And the Tiger was just an example...it should not be taken as an indicator of CMx2 setting either way :D Tigers??? Tigers??? I guess the first game will be Vietnam. Always stay in the f-ing boat, man. Always stay in the f-ing boat.

What about PzIVg? ;)

[Kwazydog]

Hehehe...actually I origionally used the Tiger as an example but didnt want to overcomplicate the example with details of early-late models, etc so I changed it to the Pv-IVg. Fixed now!

Dan

[Gordon]

Dan,
Great, maybe if I have my surgery now I'll be ready to try modding again. :D

[Gordon]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:
Columbus, that shouldnt be necessary as files should be named in a reasonably straight forward manner (depending on how late I made them ;) ). For instance a Pz-IVg tank might be made up of PzIVg-turret.bmp, PzIVg-Hull.bmp and PzIVg-details.bmp (details could be anything...for instance we may put the vision block glass in a seperate 'material' in order to all up to add reflection to it).

Modding should be really interesting for you guys in CMx2 by the way! The considerably more detailed vehicles are both a blessing and a nightmare, hehe. For instance, much of the detailed that had to be simulated by textures in CMx1 is now handled by the model itself (and has light reflected off it correctly by the engine of course). Thus, for instance, in CMx1 we needed to create a raised surface around an engine cover by hand giving it a 3D appearance including simulated lighting...that wont be necessary any more. On the other hand if you want to get a neat row of bolts around the top of that engine cover they will need to be *exactly* in place or they wont actually be on the raised surface.

The results though should well be worth the effort!

Dan

Disclaimer : And the Pz-IVg was just an example...it should not be taken as an indicator of CMx2 setting either way :D Actually, upon reflection, I'm rather puzzled. If the dimmensional aspects of the models are going to be lighted dynamically, then any "drawn" details, e.g., rivets, bolts, and other added "stuff" won't stay in synch with the dynamic lighting as the model moves with respect to the light source. Will this cause too much of a visual disontinuity to make it worth while adding such details?

[Marco Bergman]

I think you'll find in practice details like bolts and panel lines will work just the same as currently, but that the lighting engine will handle differential shading of entire faces based on light source. As long as all the details are shaded the same way, it isn't too obvious. I recently ported a Stuart III for some guys to some game (I forget the name) that worked that way for lighting, and the results looked fine.

[Battlefront.com]

Gordon, it would depend on where they are and what they are. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that Dan is going to be concerned about the same thing as he makes the models. Difference is, if he doesn't like the way it looks he can change either the model or the texture to make the end product look good. That should cull the potential problem areas for modders before you see it in the game.

COG... we'll see what we can do :D

Steve

[Kwazydog]

Gorden, yes, its a bit of a juggling act. The trick is to get the right balance of detail between the textures and the 3D models so that the lack of depth to the textures looks reasonably unnoticable.

Generally speaking any 3D game with dynamic lighting makes these sort of concessions and unless you go looking you never really notice any problems smile.gif

Dan

[ColumbusOHGamer]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:
The results though should well be worth the effort!Prove it! Post a screenie! :D

[Jack Carr]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:
...We are planning on allowing multiple vehicle textures within the same game for the same vehicle. This means you might have 5 tanks and 3 different texture sets. We are not sure if we are going to hardcode the number or allow CM to use whatever it made available to it. That has a lot to do with VRAM usage so it isn't simply a creative queation (i.e. there are technical aspects to consider).

Steve This is great! If I'm interpreting this correctly, this would mean that there could be multiple PZ IVH's running around and each could potentially look different. WOW!

Another great improvement!

[Gordon]

Steve, Marco and Dan,
Ok, we'll have to see what the balance is between what can be added versus what doesn't look right when the dynamic lighting shifts. I am moderately relieved, and look forward to seeing how it all works and what is possible within the dynamic lighting system. :D

[_Axe_]

Having such a talented group of modders here salavating at the prospects ahead is pretty cool.

And by cool, I mean sweet.

And by sweet, I mean AGARGR ARGAGRAGRGAR GARGARGARGRAGRAGR GARGARGRAGAGGRA!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ardem]

Hmmmm it a shame about the TO&E, not being able to change, unless your meaning just the names and firing power. That I am totally able to understand

I am hoping your able to change in the HQ platoon configuration, so that your able to add or remove platoon squads to a commander to replicate historical battles.

Say for instance the paratroop drops in normandy where a Lt was leading a oversized platoons or more of men with all the organisation messed up.

And will you be able to select the ranks of the leaders not just Cpt/Lt/Mj to be used better in scenario editing??

[Måkjager]

Ack.. pls disregard the bit below guys.. just found the info lower down the thread pile!

Steve & Dan , can you guys give us any ideas as to the specs needed to run the game..... cpu speed / ram and min video card please ?

Really looking forward to the new CMX2 Family smile.gif

Best regards

Måkjager

[ September 01, 2005, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Måkjager ]