Stop happy-trigger

[Snow Leopard]

My idea...how about program software to only fire one anti-rocket at target and if it got hit then hide or attack new target? I don't want waste some good rocket if see direct hit on target as we knew that rocket's HEAT warhead are deadly enough to destroy target.

Cheer
Snowleopard

[stoat]

Can you be sure each hit is a sure kill? Just wait until some merely immobilized AFV turns on you with a vengeance and you lose all of the team's rockets, instead of the extra one it took to ensure a solid kill.

[Denwad]

shoot and scoot for infantry would be cool

[SgtMuhammed]

Troops are trained to make sure something is no longer a threat before leaving it alone. Unless you see the crew bail or the thing burst into flame your first reflex is to hit it again.

Nuke 'em till they glow then shoot 'em in the dark!

[Joachim]

Besides you want to be sure the thing is damaged beyond repair. Pretty annoying if an abandoned tanks gets repaired by the enemy cause you could not hold the ground. Or even worse a crew remanning the vehicle after it failed to brew up.

I scored 5 penetrations and additional 5 partial penetrations at <100m in one turn with 2 PzIIIj vs one Lee - and that thing still moved and returned fire. So when to stop drilling holes?

No, waiting if the Lee still returns fire wasn't an option between shots. Next turn those 2 PzIIIs had one mission - make sure the beast is dead.

Gruß
Joachim

[ October 03, 2005, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):
Troops are trained to make sure something is no longer a threat before leaving it alone. I think in a broad sense, that may be true but
I have a good friend who was a Karl Gustaf #2 for years and he was most definitely trained to load, hold for Karl G#1 to fire then run like hell.

Keeping in mind that a lone isolated tank or other armoured vehicle would be rare game for tank hunters, in a normal combat situation they'd only have a few seconds after firing before all hell would break loose on their position.

[birdstrike]

I wouldn't like to see the classic overkill as seen in current CMAK been removed. Unless the target brews up or totally disintigrates, there's no way to know what damage was caused by the hit. But IMHO some sort of shoot and scoot for infantry AT units seems a good idea, maybe with some sort of option to determine the number of rounds to shoot at the target, or a certain amount of time for the attack until the unit retreats. At least give them the option to withdraw after a confirmed kill.
I can't think of any real soldiers, firing at a Tiger with a bazooka, then sticking around a minute or two for another attack or to see if the cat's dead. It's not just because the tank could blast them to bits but also because of nearby enemy infantry, and I assume after one ot two shots, whether they hit or not, they would try to get the heck out of there ASAP.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):
Troops are trained to make sure something is no longer a threat before leaving it alone. I think in a broad sense, that may be true but
I have a good friend who was a Karl Gustaf #2 for years and he was most definitely trained to load, hold for Karl G#1 to fire then run like hell.

Keeping in mind that a lone isolated tank or other armoured vehicle would be rare game for tank hunters, in a normal combat situation they'd only have a few seconds after firing before all hell would break loose on their position. </font>[/QUOTE]I think if you're firing a KG then you may as well have a big helium filled arrow attached to your helmet, with flashing lights and a DJ scratching "Karl, Karl, Karl Gustaf" behind you; So legging it's the best idea.

If you're firing a PIAT from inside a house (ground floor of course), then you can probably get away with sticking round to fire another couple off, situation dependant.

That said, I'd like the command or something like it introduced but I fear it may shade too much into micromanagement for BFC. I also think that as it's only one of the multitude of situations that may arise in combat and so to introduce specific commands for each would start to get away from the design philosophy, as well as be a bugger to do.

My 0.75 of a drachma.

[Other Means]

BTW, J Ruddy, your sig intrigues me - what's that about then?

[Dook]

A Google search reveals that J Ruddy's sig is a quote from the Princess Bride.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Dook:
A Google search reveals that J Ruddy's sig is a quote from the Princess Bride. Damn, and I've got it too.

[Snow Leopard]

I have trouble believe how quick tank crew fire back after direct hit depend what kind of tanks. It will sure stunned them bad as round bounced around inside after hit I am talk about early as 1940 model that they never have tank battle before much as little they learned from WWI they saw in near end of war. Of course, they learned much and improve late as 1943-44. Best example, I am talking about effect inside tank after hit by rocket with HEAT warhead. Try picture yourself inside...will your vison still good? Inside get blacked as get blind by flash and feel burned.

To some readers, Do you want me explain more what HEAT is? I am sure 80 percents of readers know what it is...but I am not sure if they knew what exact happen to crew after hit by HEAT. It is like giant welder...very hot jetstream with melted metal as like volcano blew up inside in under one second.

I watched tv history channel as men talk about be in Sherman and faced to Tiger, they said they will see their friends' Shermans that got hit by tiger's 88 sometime before and peek inside to see if they can find bodies to but nope as just shoes and dogtag. Maybe some stories edit out as may too graphic on family channel.

[ October 03, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Snow Leopard ]

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Other Means:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dook:
A Google search reveals that J Ruddy's sig is a quote from the Princess Bride. Damn, and I've got it too. </font>[/QUOTE]And its a damn fine movie as well:
Have fun storming the castle

Originally posted by Other Means:
That said, I'd like the command or something like it introduced but I fear it may shade too much into micromanagement for BFC. I also think that as it's only one of the multitude of situations that may arise in combat and so to introduce specific commands for each would start to get away from the design philosophy, as well as be a bugger to do.PIATs are one out of a few types of weapons used in WWII - of course PIATs aren't rocket propelled but are spring loaded so they don't create the obvious amount of smoke and flame that a rocket propelled AT weapon does. Assuming the first game is Bazooka wielding Americans in Europe, and my head isn't up my butt as usual, I think that the shoot and scoot option for AT teams is a pretty valid request.

Since you already have the command in the game for armour and it isn't considered micromanagement but rather an essential mode of self preservation for tanks, then I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think that it is micromanagement at all but rather a valid command simulating real world tactics.

{edited to add details and keep the Grogs off my back}

[ October 03, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: J Ruddy ]

[flamingknives]

HEAT, High Explosive Anti Tank, is the generic term commonly used to describe anti-armour weapons with a shaped charge warhead, which produces what is known as the Monroe effect.

Essentially, the warhead in this case will be an explosive charge with a conical hollow in the front, base towards the target. The fuse is at the front of the projectile, sufficiently far forward to achieve a 'standoff' distance on detonation, typically of several charge diameters. The detonation is initiated from the rear of the charge and proceeds such that the blast is focussed forwards, thanks to the conical void.

To further enhance this effect, the cone is typically lined with a metal, often copper or aluminium. The focussed blast overcomes the hydrostatic (or bulk) yield of the the metal and propels it forward along the axis of the cone (from tip to base, with respect to the cone shape). Velocities of this fluid* metal jet range from 2 to 8 km/s, although the energy spread is fairly even - that is, the slower moving parts of the jet are somewhat more massive than the fast moving tip.

The effects on armour vary, but typically the jet travels in a straight line until defeated by distance of air or armour. Catastrophic damage is unlikely to occur unless the jet hits something volatile.

In the event that the jet hits nothing of importance, the end result is typically no more than a mild overpressure.

Two examples spring to mind: The first, occurring somewhere in North West Europe in '44-'45, involves a Sherman being hit with what was suspected to be a Panzerfaust. The total effect was that the closed hatches were blown open - the crew didn't even realise that their armour had been penetrated. (I don't recall the details any further, and I don't have the book it was in either.)

The second event is much more recent; in August 2003, a US M1 Abrams was knocked out after an unknown projectile, believed to be an RPG7 rocket, scored a hit on the weak spot on the underside of the turret ring. The jet went clean across the turret and hit a control box on the far wall, which disabled the tank. The tank crew were largely unaffected, save for the gunner who lost a chunk out of his body armour. This level of damage is what is classed as a "mobility kill"

* Fluid it may be, but the jet is not molten. It may get that way after passing through air and armour, and then only around the edges, but it remains in the solid phase. It most certainly is not plasma, as it is often referred to as.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Snow Leopard:
I have trouble believe how quick tank crew fire back after direct hit depend what kind of tanks. It will sure stunned them bad as round bounced around inside after hit I am talk about early as 1940 model that they never have tank battle before much as little they learned from WWI they saw in near end of war. Of course, they learned much and improve late as 1943-44. Best example, I am talking about effect inside tank after hit by rocket with HEAT warhead. Try picture yourself inside...will your vison still good? Inside get blacked as get blind by flash and feel burned. And while you try to sort yourself out after this horrifying experience, the other 18 tanks in the squadron and the attached infantry company, and the attached gun battery in overwatch make short work of the AT rocket launcher team, no need to thank them. ;)

[Snow Leopard]

Andrea,
Oh I forget that one as I wish that we have "shoot and scoot" order for anti-tank crew as other one mention that one.

I don't think anti-tank crew will want bother "beehive" if see 18 tanks near but will attack if see lone tank near as other in distant range. I did make crews hide and hold fire until I can be sure they will be able to escape after attack. If fight in city, they can escape easy.

Regards
Snowleopard

[Snow Leopard]

Shalt we have shoot and scoop order add for infantry/anti-tank teams even flamethrower teams Denwad's idea?

I read that some snipers in real life in war will scoop after score a kill as not want stay in same place.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Other Means:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dook:
A Google search reveals that J Ruddy's sig is a quote from the Princess Bride. Damn, and I've got it too. </font>[/QUOTE]And its a damn fine movie as well:
Have fun storming the castle
</font>[/QUOTE]No! To the pain!



{snip}

Assuming the first game is Bazooka wielding Americans in Europe, and my head isn't up my butt as usual, I think that the shoot and scoot option for AT teams is a pretty valid request.

Since you already have the command in the game for armour and it isn't considered micromanagement but rather an essential mode of self preservation for tanks, then I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think that it is micromanagement at all but rather a valid command simulating real world tactics.
We don't take kindly to folks being reasonable round here, sets a bad example for the Canadians.

Anyway, you're assuming that Armour and Infantry share the same under-lying movement codebase which considering they have different parameters they must account for isn't completely valid. Even with that aside, as we can't comment on it, do you want him to fire 1 shot, 2 shots, until the tank is considered disabled? Until it's killed? What happens when you're screaming at him to get out the way/take the next shot and he doesn't as it's against the order you explicitly set?

IRL I'd imagine you'd say "Njenkins, you're a loon, go take out that Panther. Try to spare the Captain writing a letter to your mamma."

IOW, you'd rely on Njenkins inherent survival mechanism to keep him out of trouble, while letting him judge when to take his shots. I imagine something like that would be very difficult to implement.

So I, in turn, must disagree.

Nyah.

[Joachim]

Maybe we get SOPs. This would solve the whole problem - would it.

Re 88s vs Shermans - an 88 shell has some more mass and HE inside than a HEAT round. Add to that the "Ronson - lights first time every time" nick of the Sherman. If the Sherman brews up, no further round necessary - this is a sure indication of a kill.

So what happens if a AT-team brews a tank and we have SOPs. Do we need one for the team to run after firing (which might be before the impact) - or do we need one "observe shot. If sure kill and no enemy overwatch - remain calm. If kill in doubt or overwatch - run. If good position, no overwatch and quick reload time - shoot again."?

Will there be the same SOPs for PaK 37mm HC or about any ATG at close quarters?

Opening up a can of worms....

Gruß
Joachim

[Sergei]

No, there will be no SOP's. Steve has explicitly said it's a no-no.

[Peter Cairns]

What we don't have at the moment, but the new morale system might give us, is the AT crew seeing the other 18 tanks in the squadron, and buggering off without fireing a shot....

"**** and Shift" seems as valid an option as "Shoot and Scoop" in some circumstance, particularly for green or shaken units.

Peter.

[Dillweed]

Originally posted by flamingknives:
HEAT, High Explosive Anti Tank, is the generic term commonly used to describe anti-armour weapons with a shaped charge warhead, which produces what is known as the Monroe effect.

According to the all-seeing all-knowing Wikipedia HEAT rounds use the "Neumann effect" which was developed from the Monre effect. smile.gif In case you still don't know what a HEAT round is here is the link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEAT)