My paper, rock, scissors conundrum.

[Snydeman]

Greetings all!

I'm so far enjoying the game, although like many I abhor the pathfinding issues my units seem to have as well as a few other bugs/issues. I won't get up in arms though, because as I recall CMBB also had quite a few wrinkles to iron out in its opening months. I trust BF to sort if all out, and I can see enormous potential in the engine.

Anyways, my tactical problem is this: I'm in the second mission of the Campaign - where you attack a Syrian airfield to capture the barracks, HQ and specforce buildings - and I'm gaining absolutely zero ground. Here's the essential dilemma:

1) The enemy is very good at hiding, or my boys in vehicles are very bad at spotting, or both. I can often be taking fire and have no idea where from. Granted, that's realistic, but the level to which I can't see the enemy at 30 meters is troubling.

2) Infantry that dismount, unless RIGHT up against a building, are pretty much mincemeat. So, I figure I need to get close to a building to dismount. Bonus if I pop smoke and THEN dismount. I'm all about trying to save my lil guys' lives. Trouble with this is...

3) Enemy RPGs are very nasty at close range. Were it not for my godlike ability to warp time and space, I'd have lost half my force by now. Of course I'd like to suppress or kill the buggers from range, but that's only possible if I can SPOT them. See #1.

4) The best spotters are probably my soldiers, unmounted, in a nice safe building somewhere. I figure 20 eyes have to be better than 2 peeking through a metal slit. Of course, when I dismount those lil guys....see #2.

Now my grasp on modern infantry combat isn't THAT newbish....I know that, like WW2, the idea that you suppress fire while moving in assault units is still basically the same; however the terrain and the deadly effects and precision of modern weaponry make this a dicey proposal at best. Better still to fire 1000s of rounds at the building and try and kill them before moving in. That or panic the sonsabiscuits so bad they'll be curled up in the fetal position and then move in assault troops. So, unless I'm interpreting things incorrectly, the gist of tactics in this game - as opposed to CMBO, CMBB or CMAK is "kill them with heavy fire at range" and avoid coming close at all. Of course, #1 rears it's ugly head again. Can't kill what I can't see.

So, in short: I need to be able to spot the enemy to kill the enemy. However, it seems I can't spot them unless I have dismounted eyeballs at close enough range to see them. Problem there is my guys get chewed up if I dismount, even right next to a door. I'd suppress the enemy to allow my guys to dismount IF I could spot them.

*sighs*

Help?!

Oh yes, random question: Is there any way to TELL my unit which ordinance I want it to fire? Skimmed the rulebook but couldn't find it listed.

"Yes, Lt. Johnson, I realize that you do not see an enemy squad in that building. Would you mind putting a 105mm shell into the front window anyway? Please? Lt. Johnson? Hello?"

Snydeman out.

[Thomm]

Your problems sound familiar ...

Houses standing so close together that you cannot get LOS by long-distance shooters are particularly nasty!

I just guess that we are slowly discovering the true challenges hidden in CM:SF!

Best regards,
Thomm

PS: I apologize for not answering your question!

[Dirtweasle]

On my second go through on that last night, I think there is good bit of wind blowing dust around. Same issues you are having too by the way. Looking forward to reading the replies to this thread.

[Chelco]

Hi Snydeman,

Good point.
I haven't played that scenario yet.
But I wonder if area fire on suspected enemy positions could help.

[Snydeman]

Area fire would work, except that my Stryker than proceeds to fire a machine gun rather than, oh I dunno, that BIG gun it has. =/

[Garm]

In this mission, I managed to capture the barracks and the airfield HQ, but had lost too many men to successfully attack the SpecForces building. I finally moved on with the campaign without winning this battle.
To 1) Sometimes, when there are lots of buildings near an objective so you can guess that there are troops hiding, I use an preemptive artillery strike before getting even near. I also recommand to protect the 40mm Stryker because it is the most effective for suppressing infantry.

[massive1974]

I also got stuck with this scenario and just moved on to the next
HOWEVER. try this:

Use the Stryker MGSes to blow a couple of houses to smethereens. just pick any, the ones holding a couple of opfor have obvious preference. that will create a smallish safezone as in my experience they move away from nearby buldings as well (unless its an objective) where you can pour in a squad at least and get a foothold.
and then I guess it's either good old house to house with smoke and support fire or you can try to use your squad to spot and just point target with arty any nearby bulding that looks askance.

also, from what i saw while playing, unmounted soldiers are not much better at spotting than, say, a stryker. so if you're willing to lose a couple of guys in house to house just to clear a smallish area, then there won't be RPGs around and the stryker can come in and do the spotting.

[Sgt Joch]

I just started that mission. I am trying my CMx1 WW2 tactics, basically move my infantry up, one team at a time, in short bounds with the remaining infantry/vehicles in overwatch.

As soon as they spot something or take fire, move up my MGS/40 mm Strykers in LOS and blast the enemy into oblivion.

rinse, repeat. I will report back on how it goes.

[Pandur]

hm, as i expirienced it you just lack targets when the red side lacks targets.
since they dont have super firepower and magical optics, they jsut fire(or at least they should)when there is something nice to hit...
in my tast everything is a little too early spotted.
however, drive in, present em vehicles and/or man and you see many target poping up, opening fire and traying to waste some blue stuff.

than you use all firepower and decimate the targets. mostly thats small combatant groups wich will stay there but after the first engagement are just 2-4 guys left per group. however these keep harassing(sp!?).

not movin and waiting for the underdog to come out and get its beaeting wont make him come.
you have to give him oppurtunity to bite you, just a little, than you pull back the hand and hit him.

in that particular battle i didnt cleared out verry much, i forced my way to the first 2 bjectives, at minute 55 i had both and backed up to where i came from, drove around the compount to the 3rd platton wich took the taxiway entrance(nasty there).
from there, over open ground, i launch the attack on the SF HQ.

one solution of many but it worked so far...

[Dirtweasle]

Yes that makes sense Pandur, but the execution at least on my part a similar plan using similar tactics has been lacking. The 2 -3 Reds forces left over even have been giving me fits.

[Snydeman]

Hmm, the issue then is that I can't seem to force my Stryker's to use the 105. Too often I target a wall or building, and they begin to fire a .50 cal at it. Useless.

[massive1974]

Well, I don't know...it worked for me...not always mind you but eventually they started using the 105

[Pandur]

Yes that makes sense Pandur, but the execution at least on my part a similar plan using similar tactics has been lacking. The 2 -3 Reds forces left over even have been giving me fits. indeed :D
i expirience that too, but at least the underdog shows himself as oposed to the other "sitting" aproach.
than all boil down on how good is your overwatch, howfast are targes given through the ranks and com-lines. the faster and better that works the less casualties you "hand" will take.

again, just becouse i know how it would be done in maybe a pratical way doesnt mean it works perfectly for me smile.gif
there is still pathfinding and tacai wich i have to relie on. and also the enemy doesnt quiet allways do what i have planed.

[Sgt Joch]

This is a continuation of the same debate with had in CMx1 of whether Halftracks are taxis or assault vehicles.

-If you move your infantry up inside a Stryker/Bradley, they are safe from small arms fire and light shrapnel, but a RPG/ATGM can easily take out the vehicle and all the troops inside it in one shot;

-If you move your infantry up dismounted, they can be chewed up by small arms fire/artillery, but they give you an extra set of eyes to spot RPG/ATGM teams which they can take out on their own with JAVELINS, plus the vehicles can provide fire support against any spotted infantry/MG/HQ units;

Since you have to assume that any enemy force, even irregulars, will be liberally equipped with RPG/ATGMs, moving loaded vehicles blindly within the enemy LOS is risky. On the other hand, moving dismounted infantry across open ground can also be dangerous.

Hence the rock, paper, scissors conendrum...

[MikeyD]

The infantry 5.56 M4 carbine is crap (in-game) at supressing enemy fire from a building because the rounds have difficulty penetrating the walls. Go up to 7.62 and higher and you start supressing properly. The recon Stryker and M707 humvee do improve spotting chances but you have to unbutton your commander to get the benefit. And even if the commander doesn't actually spot anyone when unbuttoned he's bound to draw fire - then just hope he survives long enough for you to spot the muzzle flashes and return fire!

[monty burns]

Originally posted by Snydeman:
Area fire would work, except that my Stryker than proceeds to fire a machine gun rather than, oh I dunno, that BIG gun it has. =/ I've experienced the same phenomenon. The 105 will fire once and then its just MG fire.

[Phillip Culliton]

I would think that the M240B/M249 would be the primary suppressing tools of the dismounted infantry platoon. That and their M203s. Now, if my guys with M4s would actually *shoot* the enemy when they got close and had a clear shot in building assaults, I'd be happy.

As for moving while mounted, I think it's a horrible idea. Unless facing unconventional forces, the enemy has too much AT to rely on Stryker / Bradley armor to stop their incoming rounds. I always advance dismounted as early as possible.

Spot the enemy earlier, kill him before he gets too many clear shots. Split up your teams to minimize the "whole squad gets waxed" lemming syndrome, and also to allow you to suppress more potential enemy locations.

[Zipuli]

My experience with the recce Humvee and Stryker are quite bad as every time I move them up they draw MG fire and they lose the optics. And got to say I am very happy with this, as this is something that they should do also in real life. If you have no RPGs to shoot, take off the eyes before they spot you. smile.gif Usually they use PKMs and DShKs.

Zip

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Phillip Culliton:
As for moving while mounted, I think it's a horrible idea. Unless facing unconventional forces, the enemy has too much AT to rely on Stryker / Bradley armor to stop their incoming rounds. I always advance dismounted as early as possible. I do too. Don't forget you can Pop Smoke with the Strykers, too; its not hard cover but it can sometimes get your dismounted infantry forward when there is no other way.

[ToadMan]

Before the mission I decided to put pretty much all my guys through the front gate and roll to the barracks from there.

Having made that decision, I looked at where the enemy would be holed up - the bunkers and building around the entrance were obvious places.

So, I dismounted a Javelin equipped squad or two, levelled the bunkers and a couple of the buildings just inside the gate pretty much from the set up area, and drove in with strykers (carefully - using overwatch and smoke).

Once there, I could get some guys into the buildings that were still standing with the strykers and MGSs suppressing the HQ building. We took some small arms fire but nothing major. I may have lost one (empty) stryker near the gate and a few casualties but had anough to move on the barracks.

After that, the meat grinder just rolls down the road...

I think waiting to spot the enemy in that particular mission is a bit too late - if there are obvious defensive positions then I'll hit them before I've seen anything - at worst this means progress will be quicker and at best, I'll have killed a few enemy and pinned some others.

TM.

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Snydeman:
Hmm, the issue then is that I can't seem to force my Stryker's to use the 105. Too often I target a wall or building, and they begin to fire a .50 cal at it. Useless. I've noticed that the 105's have a very long reload time. If they haven't fired in awhile, and I area-target a building, they tend to fire the 105's pretty reliably. The 50cal fires continuously while the 105 is reloading.

[Pandur]

iam quiet happy about their slow ROF...the vehicles have verry low ammo and if i target a group of fighters you can mostly say that some die. and i wouldnt want to waste another of 9 HE´s on a squad i just hit(MGS in mission 2 had 9HE´s for me).
so i would be happy if they would fire just "1" round per turn when i plot a taget command on a enemy unit. with area fire it should be 2-3 or so in a minute.

otherwhise these things are empty befor anything major has started

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Pandur:
iam quiet happy about their slow ROF...the vehicles have verry low ammo and if i target a group of fighters you can mostly say that some die. and i wouldnt want to waste another of 9 HE´s on a squad i just hit(MGS in mission 2 had 9HE´s for me).
so i would be happy if they would fire just "1" round per turn when i plot a taget command on a enemy unit. with area fire it should be 2-3 or so in a minute.

otherwhise these things are empty befor anything major has started I agree. I'm glad that they don't fire on their own, considering their low ammo counts.

[Pandur]

well, they do fire on their own but with MGS i just saw it below 150 metersonce or twice. its ok when it is that close, so verry rarely they can let off shots to units wich pose an "extreme threat" in their eyes...

[Dirtweasle]

Having made that decision, I looked at where the enemy would be holed up - the bunkers and building around the entrance were obvious places.

So, I dismounted a Javelin equipped squad or two, levelled the bunkers and a couple of the buildings just inside the gate pretty much from the set up area, and drove in with strykers (carefully - using overwatch and smoke).

Once there, I could get some guys into the buildings that were still standing with the strykers and MGSs suppressing the HQ building. We took some small arms fire but nothing major. I may have lost one (empty) stryker near the gate and a few casualties but had anough to move on the barracks.

After that, the meat grinder just rolls down the road... Are you sure we are playing the same game?

In my copy of CMSF a lone half-squad of Syrian rifleman shoot the crap out of 3 squads of US Infantry, enemy RPGs fly through the smallest keyholes between buildings hitting without fail, the remaining Stykers drive around buildings like DUIs on the way home from the tavern only to disembark the assault teams on the rear side of buidlings where there are no doors.

Shoot, maybe I D/L'd the wrong game? ;)

[MikeyD]

The current MGS big gun fire rate is an attempt to get around the vehicle's low ammo loadout problem. Imagine you 'area fire' with MGS,using is full ROF. get distracted for a moment and you'll VERY quickly be out of ammo! I've found you've got two choices with the current setup. You can either retarget each time and get an immediate big gun boom or you can just ignore the MGS in 'area fire' mode - it'll fire the gun, run the mg for awhile, then eventually return to the big gun again.

I just thought. There is no reload animations for the 8-shot autloader drum, perhaps the long stretches between firing can be considered an abstracted method of factoring in autoloader reload issues.

[Snydeman]

Of course, the OTHER issue I'm having is that I KNOW pickup trucks aren't left in the streets for nothing. Probably dangerous. But does the game give me any option to remove those trucks with a 105 shot? No. How about blowing a hole in the wall so I don't HAVE to pass by the pickup truck and lose my whole squad when it blows up? Nope.

I'll come back to the game when I can actually have a little control over what my forces do, better pathfinding, and a few more tactical possibilities. Maybe the patch will help.

[Phillip Culliton]

Hey Snydeman. I expect that the next patch might help with some of that stuff. But if you need to detonate VBIED's, just target them. It works, I build scenarios with a number of them.

[Snydeman]

Target them with MG fire? Done that, to no effect.

Target them with a 105 shot? Would, but my guys want to save ammo, so screw what I, the commander, ask for....they won't fire. Same when I ask them to blow a hole in a wall to open up an alternate route for my infantry.

Of course, maybe if my infantry had the ability to blow a hole in an outdoor fence...oh, I dunno, like they can in the Army?

I'll just wait for the patch. The pathfinding issues alone are killing my chances at victory....I dropped off my guys at the BACK of the middle Barracks building, because I knew from sightings that the front building have at least 3 squads in it. Figure I'd head fast to the middle courtyard where it is safer, pop smoke and have my guys assault through the back doors you see on the buoldings...so what do they do?

They run AROUND the building into the deathzone and enter the FRONT door, getting chewed up all the way.

Needless to say I'm frustrated as hell. This game has great potential, but even using sound and wise tactics I'm getting chewed up. Games are supposed to be at least somewhat fun, not make you want to put your head through the screen.

[Phillip Culliton]

Yeah, I'm waiting for the patch to play seriously as well -- the pathing and AI issues are just too much. Having tons of fun with the scenario editor in the meantime, though.

As for the VBIEDs my Strykers seem to have no trouble blowing them. Maybe give the 40mm a shot? Or dump a mortar mission on the thing. Even a Jav would be worth not being within range when it goes off.

[Snydeman]

I get ya...but HOW do I tell my teams or squads exactly which ordinance to use?

[Phillip Culliton]

You can't as far as I can tell. Load up a squad with a Javelin, though, and give them a hard target, and they'll likely fire one every now and again.

As for the 40mm, I would recommend using the AGL mounted on the Strykers. I've noticed that M203s tend to get used at relatively close ranges -- well within the killing radius of those VBIEDs.

Oh, and if you're not sure about IEDs, keep your guys mounted. I've noticed dismounts getting killed or seriously wounded quite a distance from VBIED blasts, while unbuttoned Stryker crews remained unharmed.

[Drusus]

The 105mm will fire fast enough if you cancel the fire order after every shot and then reissue it. Easy (but frustrating) to do in real time mode.

But I really wonder about the realism of the airfield mission. First, the amount of infantry you have compared to the amount of enemy infantry seems to be something that should be avoided in real conflict. Also, taking 1 square kilometer of urban territory in 80 minutes with one company of Strykers and no artillery support. Seems suicidal to me.

But it is possible to win this mission, even without the usage of Javelins. It just requires a lot of area fire, plenty of patience and some casualties. You have to take one or two buildings at a time using area fire to all potential enemy locations. And playing the scenario a few times helps to identify those possible enemy locations ;)

[buckmaster]

My tactic is hit them hard, and hit them fast. In other words mounted squads in 50 cal strykers. 105s, 40mils blow the crap out of the target building rush the infantry across right up to the door and assault and clear. Sniper and mg sections come in handy for suppression. once you start moving dont stop. If you get bogged down, jav the building

[Snydeman]

All fine and good, but is no one understanding that I still can't get my guys to "jav the building"

If I could somehow choose the armament they utilize, I'd not be posting about this issue.

And yes, I've used all the suggestions here. But once a Stryker gets low on ammo, it will NOT fire the big 105 for me. Period. =/

[Snydeman]

And I apologize if I sound testy...not meant to be directed at anyone in the thread