Stalingrad

[Dillweed]

C'mon you know you want a Stalingrad game with the new urban warfare mechanics. I realise that this is going to be a longway off (after CMSF, CMBO2.0 and CMSLOD) but I would be suprised if 1 of the 2 remaining games wasn't an eastern front game. I think it would be a crime not to include old S-grad in an eastern front game. As I said, a long long off, but any other support for this? And any other ideas for an EF game? With the new plan we'll prolly only get 1 battle, at least for the initial release.

[GSX]

Imagine the variety of the scenarios. Take this house. 2 take this house, 3 take this house, 4 you get what I mean........

I imagine after scenario 3 I may go out and watch some paint dry.

[Dillweed]

Yes, based on past preformance BFC has shown that it is incable of making a variety of intresting scenarios.

[MikeyD]

From the way it sounds they're putting a lot of work into much fancier multi-story multi-room buildings. I suspect whether its Stalingrad or not you're definitely going to find 'somebody' fighting 'somebody' in intense house-to-house fighting in the game.

Hey, if they let you stack floors for make-your-own high-rise buildings (remember that one battered high-rise in the middle of Sarajevo?) maybe we could do vertically directed as well as horizontal battles!

[Liebchen]

Originally posted by GSX:
Imagine the variety of the scenarios. Take this house. 2 take this house, 3 take this house, 4 you get what I mean........

I imagine after scenario 3 I may go out and watch some paint dry. What the hell are you talking about? Are you even familiar with the battle of Stalingrad? There were battles for bunkers, factories, apartment buildings, etc.

There was also a major feature smack in the middle of town called Mamayev Hill (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/m/ma/mamayev_kurgan.htm) where literally tens of thousands of men died. The combat on that hill was ferocious and never-ending, with each sides sending patrols, infiltrating, assaulting it numerous times as the "lines" fluctuated back and forth endlessly. I believe that they are still finding bones on that hill, when the rain washed the soil away...

There was also "Pavlov's House (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/p/pa/pavlovs_house1.htm)" where a platoon of isolated Russians held off numerous German assaults for two months.

These are just a few of the specific encounters that I can think of. (There's also the Grainery...) In other words, the Battle for Stalingrad is chock full of encounters that would make for excellent scenarios in the CMx2.0 engine.

[Bigduke6]

Liebchen,

My computer can read Russian, which leads me to a question. In your signature line, where you have "chicken-**** bastards", the Russian actually reads, literally: "frightened Without translation."

I was wondering if you were aware of that. If you are, I have no further questions.

P.S. I for one would love a Stalingrad game, as it takes place on the Eastern Front. I would only hope it would cover the latter half of the war, so one could replicate the Red Army's urban renewal techniques in Berlin.

[Dillweed]

Berlin might be intresting, somehow a campaign of t-34s vs 14 year-old HYs with panzerfausts just doesn't seems as fun. Stalingrad would be exellent.
Main game is the German attack into the city, with a module for the soviet counter-offensive.

[Liebchen]

Another fascinating city-fighting edition would be the Red Devils at Arnhem, of course. There were lots of different situations there, and different types of structures. There was the bridge, for one, and the towers on it's sides. There were office buildings, houses, govt buildings, etc. Much less damaged than at Stalingrad, at the time, having not been bombed beforehand.

[Sergei]

Arnhem sounds like a too narrow subject. Wasn't there only a battalion of Brits, just for a week.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Sergei:
Arnhem sounds like a too narrow subject. Wasn't there only a battalion of Brits, just for a week. Sounds like an excellent module though.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Other Means:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:
Arnhem sounds like a too narrow subject. Wasn't there only a battalion of Brits, just for a week. Sounds like an excellent module though. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe if the whole Market-Garden was in focus. But a single town? Bah!

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I am certainly a big fan of the Eastern Front. In my very prejudiced view when it comes to wargames there is the Eastern Front… and then the rest ;) . From a military history/wargaming view point the Eastern Front is by far the most interesting… if there ever was a “war to end all wars”… the Eastern Front is it.

However… when it comes to the setting for an Eastern Front game my vote would go to Korsun Pocket Feb.’44 or the L’vov Operation July ’44.

Why.. because the both the Germans and the Soviets were pretty much at the top of their game. Plus late war toys/AFVs are more fun than early war toys. One example on the toy front is that by Feb. ’44, even more so by July ’44, the Germans had more powerful infantry anti-tank weapons. Adds to the fun.

When it comes to the Germans being on top of their game it is the case that the German army of summer ’44 was both fully trained, manned and equipped. Some may object to this idea, think things piqued in the summer ’42 for the Germans. However, in Soviet Blitzkrieg by Walter S Dunn there is a very detailed explanation of how the German army of early summer ’44 was trained, manned and equipped, taken from the German army’s own records. The excuse sometimes put about by the some that the German army of summer ’44 was already exhausted just does not wash. The intake of November ’43 had been fully trained, manning levels were mostly at full establishment as were equipment levels. You only have to look at the German forces in Normandy to see this.

Anyway…. both Korsun and L’vov would have the Germans and Soviets clashing with mobile warfare, plus positional if you wish, at the highest levels it reached in WWII.

It does not get any better than that… smile.gif Stalingrad was a bit dull ;) … horrific sure… but a bit uninteresting militarily. In my view.

All the best,
Kip.

[Liebchen]

Originally posted by Sergei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Other Means:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:
Arnhem sounds like a too narrow subject. Wasn't there only a battalion of Brits, just for a week. Sounds like an excellent module though. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe if the whole Market-Garden was in focus. But a single town? Bah! </font>[/QUOTE]I was only really replying to the concept that street fighting would be boring, guys. I'm inclined to think otherwise. (Oh, yeah, how about a module for Hue during the Tet offensive as an urban combat setting?)

Of course I would like to see all types of operations in the games. And of course I would like to see the entirety of Market-Garden if they do a module on that campaign. I really have no preferences, other than that they do an Ostfront game first. ;)

Oh, yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing an island-hopping series at some point. Okinawa is full of potential at this scale. Ratholes, bunkers, deep ravines, countless hilltops, etc.

[PzKpfwIII]

Originally posted by Liebchen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GSX:
Imagine the variety of the scenarios. Take this house. 2 take this house, 3 take this house, 4 you get what I mean........

I imagine after scenario 3 I may go out and watch some paint dry. What the hell are you talking about? Are you even familiar with the battle of Stalingrad? There were battles for bunkers, factories, apartment buildings, etc.

There was also a major feature smack in the middle of town called Mamayev Hill (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/m/ma/mamayev_kurgan.htm) where literally tens of thousands of men died. The combat on that hill was ferocious and never-ending, with each sides sending patrols, infiltrating, assaulting it numerous times as the "lines" fluctuated back and forth endlessly. I believe that they are still finding bones on that hill, when the rain washed the soil away...

There was also "Pavlov's House (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/p/pa/pavlovs_house1.htm)" where a platoon of isolated Russians held off numerous German assaults for two months.

These are just a few of the specific encounters that I can think of. (There's also the Grainery...) In other words, the Battle for Stalingrad is chock full of encounters that would make for excellent scenarios in the CMx2.0 engine. </font>[/QUOTE]Also the Grain Elevator.

kipanderson's comments highlight one of the problems with threads like this (not to pick on kipanderson, who provides a strong case for balanced battles in that time era); some people assume that because they have intimate knowledge of a certain era or battle gained through intense study that it renders "their" subject more interesting than others, and invalidates the opinions of others as to what is interesting. The flaws in this should be obvious;

a) degree of interest is a personal thing and different battles will be interesting to different people for different reasons

b) degree of interest can be very much related to how much one knows about a subject, or desires to know

If Stalingrad is "boring" to someone who has detailed knowledge of the Korsun Pocket, so be it, but I'd hardly suggest that Stalingrad could not be just as interesting to others, especially someone with as much apparent knowledge as Liebchen.

Brest-Litovsk is my particular battle of interest; not out of any detailed knowledge of the battle itself, but simply because it occurred so early on and the Red Army was able to perform adequately enough so soon; a relatively rare instance of such. Would be interesting to explore through the medium of CMX2.

As far as western front, the Remagen Bridgehead seems to be as interesting as the Arnhem bridge fighting; not the seizure of the bridge itself, which was a fluke, but the slow buildup of forces on both sides of the river, as no one expected any large operations to be mounted in that sector. The first combat use of the Pershing Tank, as well as attacks by German frogmen, V weapons, and jet aircraft. Perhaps not applicable to a CM scale game, but plenty of fodder also for some company size engagements near the Erpeler Ley using units from lesser well known formations such as the 9th Armored Division.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Sergei:
Arnhem sounds like a too narrow subject. Wasn't there only a battalion of Brits, just for a week. No, the whole 1st. Airborne Div. made it to Arnhem. It's just that only a battalion or so made it to the bridge. The rest of the division got trapped on the western outskirts of the city, where they fought a vicious week-long battle to try to hold on to the DZs.

But to take your point, it would make a better module than a whole game series.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

One thing I'd personally like to see is a series of modules all based on the Breakout & Pursuit from about July 28-September 10 1944. This could include the battles of Mortain, Falaise Gap, and lots of small actions all across France and the Low Countries.

How about scenarios where armored spearheads are trying to advance a maximum distance against German delaying forces trying to hold the Amis back long enough for their armies to withdraw back into the Reich.

smile.gif

Michael

[kipanderson]

Hi,

When it comes to Stalingrad… I let rip that I though it was a “bit dull”.

By this I really mean the city fighting, the part most film makers would think of when it some to Stalingrad. But I am more open minded than readers my think ;) . I have built in CMBB a very large, very accurate map of Stalingrad based directly on a series of aerial photos I came across. It was fun. But once you have fought a couple of city battles on the maps, you have done all that can be done.

Of course, one of the main features of CMX2 is the way more accurate modelling of urban warfare… so I expect that such battles will be far more fun in future. But the fighting “around” Stalingrad would be more fun, in the long run, battle after battle, than the city fighting. In my view.

All the best,
Kip.

[PzKpfwIII]

Originally posted by kipanderson:
Hi,

When it comes to Stalingrad… I let rip that I though it was a “bit dull”.

By this I really mean the city fighting, the part most film makers would think of when it some to Stalingrad. But I am more open minded than readers my think ;) . I have built in CMBB a very large, very accurate map of Stalingrad based directly on a series of aerial photos I came across. It was fun. But once you have fought a couple of city battles on the maps, you have done all that can be done.

Of course, one of the main features of CMX2 is the way more accurate modelling of urban warfare… so I expect that such battles will be far more fun in future. But the fighting “around” Stalingrad would be more fun, in the long run, battle after battle, than the city fighting. In my view.

All the best,
Kip. I hope we will be seeing your Stalingrad maps in CM:C? Would be a shame if all we had to do was steal Charles Kibler's stuff from the ASL modules...

Infantry combat in CMX1 was very abstractly handled and so naturally a move to CMX2 would be more - interesting. Being abstract also, it was - well, dull - to watch squads sit in the middle of factories and shoot at each other for several turns with no sweeping movements possible. Not sure if a 1:1 treatment would remedy that or not.

For now, though, I think the real fun of a Stalingrad themed CM game would be in maneuvering forces on a CMC map in order to create unbalanced scenarios. The Stalingrad battles in CMBB were - as you point out - repetitive and to me seemed to lack options for the players.

[Dillweed]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:
Arnhem sounds like a too narrow subject. Wasn't there only a battalion of Brits, just for a week. No, the whole 1st. Airborne Div. made it to Arnhem. It's just that only a battalion or so made it to the bridge. The rest of the division got trapped on the western outskirts of the city, where they fought a vicious week-long battle to try to hold on to the DZs.

But to take your point, it would make a better module than a whole game series.

Michael </font>[/QUOTE]There were also some germans IIRC.

[Liebchen]

Just one or two...

[Dillweed]

Actually the germans had a really intresting mix of the older expirenced SS an FJ and the newer crappier FJ an VGs.

[Liebchen]

This is quite true. I was just pulling your leg. smile.gif

[Dillweed]

I know, just stating a fact. I just find the Arnhem campaign intresting because its a bridge for the german units between the early war (for the western front anyway) and the late war Gomer Pyle formations.

But I think we would all agree that with the new mission objectives availible with CMx2 a stalingrad game would not be unwelcome. smile.gif You are on notice Steve.

I wouldn't be suprised if we see one in a few years. And as far as I know I have the best record on the boards for predicting unannoced releases. tongue.gif

[PzKpfwIII]

Originally posted by Dillweed:
Actually the germans had a really intresting mix of the older expirenced SS an FJ and the newer crappier FJ an VGs. Not to mention the Training and Replacement Battalion of one of the SS panzer divisions - which would have been an interesting mix in themselves of cadre, convalescents, and recruits.

[Andrew H.]

The problem with urban fighting in CMx1 is that there weren't that many options for the player - no mouseholing, no climbing around on the roofs, and no good way to get intel about the other guy.

And because urban areas were made up of positions of great cover, alternating with positions of great exposure, the best approach was often just a head on attack with as many forces possible to the next building. Significant flanking moves were risky because a much smaller force could pin down a larger flanking force as it tried to cross into the open. Due to borg spotting and lots of covered rear areas, it was usually easy for an opponent to react quickly to any attempted breakthrough.

Now to some extent good scenario design (and mapmaking) could compensate for these shortcomings, but for the run-of-the-mill QB, urban fights were often not that interesting.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Dillweed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:
Arnhem sounds like a too narrow subject. Wasn't there only a battalion of Brits, just for a week. No, the whole 1st. Airborne Div. made it to Arnhem. It's just that only a battalion or so made it to the bridge. The rest of the division got trapped on the western outskirts of the city, where they fought a vicious week-long battle to try to hold on to the DZs.

But to take your point, it would make a better module than a whole game series.

Michael </font>[/QUOTE]There were also some germans IIRC. </font>[/QUOTE]I've heard rumors to that effect. Do you know anything?

Michael

[Canada Guy]

Dillweed,

You have a great record of predicting upcoming games as long as we ignore that perdiction you made back in 2003 of "Combat Mission - Himmler in Tights".

You are right though that the new CMx2 engine should give us the ability to make old battles new again. Though I am waiting for the new look of house to house fighting, I think just the additions to the AI and new objectives would have improved the old CMx1 engine let alone what it will do for CMx2. I hope that no longer will the AI sit 1000m from my starting line just to crowd around a lonely victory flag.

[Dillweed]

Joined in 04 bitch!

Wow, looks like I'm right again...