Immobilizations

[Adam]

Just a note to see if anyone else has noticed that immobilizations happen a great deal in CMSF. It is actually pretty rare that I don't end up with immobilized vehicles at the end of a scenario. Isn't the rate too high?

[YankeeDog]

That's an awfully general comment. . . I think to have any productive discussion about this, more info about what kind of vehicles and where and how they are becoming immobilized would be useful.

e.g., are we talking about tracked or wheeled vehicles? Have they taken fire that might have damaged the tracks/wheels prior to immobilization? What quality level were the crews? Were the immobilizations happening on roads or in another type of terrain?

Many variables here; under the right combination of variables, immobilizations probably should be quite frequent. Others, not so much. . .

[M1A1TC]

When I was an active duty tanker, we used to lose 1-2 tanks on the way out of the gate due to mechanical problems, and a few on the way back. And this was front line unit in South Korea, 2ID
Ive seen many tanks get stuck, got one stuck myself, and helped others to un-bog. You would be surprised how often it happens in RL, especially in soft sand, mud, etc

[missinginreality]

Hmm I had something similar happen in the Abandoned Airfield scenario of the campaign. Near the end one of the Strykers suddenly became immobilized: no damage, all crew OK just didn't want to go anywhere. maybe it was stuck on something coz it was near a rubbled house. is this possibility abstracted?
Also had a weird Abandonment on the same scenario. crew abandoned a Stryker coz their FBCB2 got damaged! Still, once they'd got out and run away they were happy to be told to get back in again and drive off. guess they got scared for awhile there smile.gif

[Adam]

Try the Reisburg scenario. See if you get through a scenario without your tanks immobilized. smile.gif

[M1A1TC]

Here are some immobilizations:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/Canalcross.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/buried4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/buried1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/buried5.jpg

[M1A1TC]

And some more:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/sunk88.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/sinking2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/hummerswim.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/COD1.jpg

[M1A1TC]

duplicate

[SgtMuhammed]

I like this one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/9.jpg

Did you have to break track to get it back on?

[M1A1TC]

Yeah, we did, took about 40 min. We had to take it all the way off, lay it out, position it, and put it back on.
Here are the rest of the photos.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/13.jpg

This one is when we had to change our power pack
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/411.jpg

[ February 17, 2008, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[SgtMuhammed]

I always felt bad for the tankers when they had to break track. For us in a 113 it was a piece of cake, well compared to the tanks.

[Other Means]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/sinking2.jpg
That's going to leave a mark.

[SgtMuhammed]

1SG told them to wash their tank so they thought they would be slick.

[Meach]

B-13 bumper number...unlucky for some :S

Did the crew get disciplined for trying to use there tank as a U-boat?

[flamingknives]

Possibly they had to wash the drivers coveralls.
I wouldn't want to be in that little compartment with the water coming it.

[Other Means]

Pardon the aside - in full NBC lockdown how waterproof are they? After all if some nerve agent can get through - ?

And yes, I know having the drivers hatch open would tend to be against protocol smile.gif

[Darkmage]

Originally posted by Adam1:
Try the Reisburg scenario. See if you get through a scenario without your tanks immobilized. smile.gif I got a lot of immobilized in that scenario as well haven't really seen it in any others though. Those spg-9s on the hill could immobilise but not take out my vehicles.

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by Other Means:
Pardon the aside - in full NBC lockdown how waterproof are they? After all if some nerve agent can get through - ?

And yes, I know having the drivers hatch open would tend to be against protocol smile.gif It uses an overpressure system rather than air tight seals. You close the hatches and air gets blown out what cracks there are. Doesn't help if the tank falls in the drink though. Still the seals on a track are pretty good if they have been kept up but it will eventually fill up.

We had a driver drown while I was in Hohenfels. His M1 got stuck in a large puddle, more like a small drainage lake, at night and the turret was jammed so that they couldn't get hims out. By the time they were able to pull the tank out it was too late.

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by Other Means:
Pardon the aside - in full NBC lockdown how waterproof are they? After all if some nerve agent can get through - ?

And yes, I know having the drivers hatch open would tend to be against protocol smile.gif I never had a tank with a water-tight hatch. Every time it rained or when we forded a creek, I got wet. The seals on the hatches suck. Even when I was a loader I still got rained on with a closed hatch.

[the Fighting Seabee]

Great pics. As a seabee using a lot of heavy equipment, we got plenty of stuff stuck. The most noteworthy for me was during an operation in the carribean (vieques island). A security jeep cherokee got stuck, so they tried to use a deuce and a half to pull it out. It got stuck so my mechanic hotwired a civilian dozer and I took it down there. I got stuck. We tried everything to get it out and ended up having to dig a 100 ft trench, 5 ft deep, and as wide as a dozer to pull it out. While doing so, a news chopper flew over and videoed us doing this... in an environmentally protected area we weren't supposed to be in in the first place. I got in serious trouble for that one.

[Adam]

It looks like more than 40 minutes of work, wow.

The thing is that all the non-penetrating hits have a very high probability of causing an immobilization. What exactly is happening? Are all those rounds hitting the tracks and causing track breaks or what?

[Other Means]

Thanks all - as usual the theory exceeds the practice by a fair amount.

Originally posted by Adam1:
It looks like more than 40 minutes of work, wow.

The thing is that all the non-penetrating hits have a very high probability of causing an immobilization. What exactly is happening? Are all those rounds hitting the tracks and causing track breaks or what? Judging from this pic, the track guards are very thin, so I'd expect quite a lot of non-penetrating hits to be M-kills, if in the general area.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/darksanctum/19.jpg

So overall I'm wondering if the amount of immobilisations are out of wack - given that in (e.g.) WWII even the slight armour over the tracks was proportionally bigger than that what's now present.

[M1A1TC]

The first two track skirts are armored with DU armor like the rest of the tank. The rest of the skirts are very thin, especially the last one, which gets ripped off all the time
The skirt that that guy is holding on to - is very heavy. I actually ripped it off before by driving in the woods, and getting a small tree stuck as a wedge between the tank body and the skirt, shearing the top pins right off. It took about 10 people to lift it up. We had to strap it down on the front slope, and I drove with it there for awhile smile.gif
Actually if you open the first and second skirt at the same time, they can shear the pins holding them by own weight, so that's a big no-no

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by Adam1:
It looks like more than 40 minutes of work, wow.

The thing is that all the non-penetrating hits have a very high probability of causing an immobilization. What exactly is happening? Are all those rounds hitting the tracks and causing track breaks or what? I know what you mean, a lot of my M1's get track hits causing immobilisation. I never thought it to be odd, although maybe now you mention it the probability of hitting a track might be lower IRL, but who has detailed studies of RL track hits vs CM?

Now as ever I guess the weak part of a tank is going to be the tracks, so I don't really mind, the mighty Abrams doesn't have too many other weak points so if a T55 can get a track hit or two it spices the game up.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:
The first two track skirts are armored with DU armor like the rest of the tank. The rest of the skirts are very thin, especially the last one, which gets ripped off all the time
The skirt that that guy is holding on to - is very heavy. I actually ripped it off before by driving in the woods, and getting a small tree stuck as a wedge between the tank body and the skirt, shearing the top pins right off. It took about 10 people to lift it up. We had to strap it down on the front slope, and I drove with it there for awhile smile.gif
Actually if you open the first and second skirt at the same time, they can shear the pins holding them by own weight, so that's a big no-no DU? Damn. So heavier than lead (18.95 g/cm3 vs 11.34 g/cm3 - I knew those figures off the top of my head, honest) but still - given the energy in modern penetrators I'd still wonder if it's a smaller ratio of protection than you'd get in WWII, given that the percentage area covered looks about the same.

[M1A1TC]

Not all Abrams have DU armor smile.gif The ones I served on did
Here is an analysis of T-90 VS Abrams. Sorry, it's in Russian, but atleast you can look at schematics
T-90 vs Abrams (http://btvt.narod.ru/4/t-90vsabrams.htm)

And here is a Russian tactics vs Abrams that show weak spots
Abrams kill zones (http://btvt.narod.ru/spec/antitank/destroy.htm)

A lot more information on the same site
http://btvt.narod.ru/

[FAI]

Ah, shot trap smile.gif

[hoolaman]

Actually babelfish Russian to English seems quite good, I am surprised at the lack of gibberish. Nice links.

There is a nice link in there about some of the latest T-72 upgrades with closeups of the reactive armour and stuff.

Interesting how reducing the distinctiveness of the T-72 is mentioned. The funny panels around the turret give a very different profile to something every western tanker has inprinted on his brain as an enemy tank. There is also some kind of stealth tarpaulin over the thing.

Pic 1 (http://btvt.narod.ru/5/rogatka/vid1.jpg)

Pic 2 (http://btvt.narod.ru/5/rogatka/dz9.jpg)

[ February 18, 2008, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Hoolaman ]

[Sitting Duck]

Talk about a shot trap...this looks like a shot trap on that T-72, doesn't it?

http://btvt.narod.ru/5/rogatka/dz9.jpg

[hoolaman]

Not neccesarily, its the Relict reactive armour AFAICT.

Not sure how that would react to solid penetrators though.


http://btvt.narod.ru/5/rogatka/armor_72.gif