Radeon Catalyst and Vista: Caveat Emptor is needed

[tarball]

I thought this topic was going to be consolidated, but increasingly people with Vista and an ATI Radeon card are showing up and talking about

"I crash when I click on a unit"

and this is spilling across multiple posts.

and the issue is being confused with things like AMD Multicore patches and the like. Battlefront, you need to place a warning notice on the order page:

"Be advised, the game is currently unusable if you have an ATI card, you are running Windows Vista and you are using the latest Catalyst drivers."

Remember, it is on your advice that we update to the latest drivers.

The ordering page has this to say about system compatibility:

"Operating System: Windows XP (Vista is supported)
Processor: Pentium IV 3.2 GHz or equivalent speed AMD processor or better
Video Card: GeForce 6800 or Radeon x850
(256 Megabyte VRAM or better and must support 1024x768 or higher resolution)
Sound Card: DirectX 9 compatible Sound Card
System Memory: 1 Gigabyte or more RAM
Hard Drive Space: 1 Gigabyte
Other Requirements: CD Drive (not needed for download version)"

The Radeon and Vista combo is clearly NOT supported.

I got burned on T-72 and was actually offered a refund. I wanted to support battlefront (a dedicated developer working in a niche genre), so I held out for a bit. During this period, I was placated with promises of fixes that went on into months (to be fair you were only the publishers). I should have learned from my T-72 experience, but clearly I have not learned.

As things stand today, you are falsely advertising compatibility in a situation where none exists. I won't go too deeply into the fact that consumers can be protected from this sort of thing, but this is an untenable circumstance to be sure.

While I am sure this SNAFU is somewhat innocent on your part, continuing to take people's money when this product does not work for a whole class of users is disingenuous. I have made my mistake (I should NEVER had pre-orded without the DEMO - damned if I did that with T-72 and got BURNED), but I think it would be prudent for you, as a company, to not take orders from Vista/ATI people until the issue is sorted.

Why continue to hurt other customers and your reputation?

[Vipes34uk]

The issue is not restricted to Vista, I have XP SP2 and have exactly the same issues with atioglx2.dll error and it takes ages to select a unit using mouse.

This is not just a VISTA problem!

[MikoyanPT]

Absolutely bump.
Please include the left click CTD in the known problems list.
I have a core 2
Vista
ATI drivers

This is not a performance issue.
I have good framerate and quality but.. i got imediate crash when left clicking something.

[Niskalaukaus]

Yeah it seems _no one_ with Vista & ATI gfxcard can play this game.

[cabal23]

Here is another good one, Rune stated that they never tested the game with a AMD config. WHAT!!!! How on gods green earth do you not test a game with an AMD config? Not to mention a Vista + ATI config??? Do you know how many people would have been frothing at the mouth to help beta this game and all of this could have been resolved months ago? Amatuers is all I can say. $55 flushed down the drain. I have a right mind to call my credit card company and deny charges based on false advertising.

[tarball]

Originally posted by Vipes34uk:
The issue is not restricted to Vista, I have XP SP2 and have exactly the same issues with atioglx2.dll error and it takes ages to select a unit using mouse.

This is not just a VISTA problem! Hey Vipes,

Another guy posted saying that Catalyst 7.7 fixed the error with XP SP2. Are you running 7.7?

[tarball]

Cabal,

I have voiced some of your same concerns recently. I can't imagine that there's too much budget towards professional QC testing leftover in such a small shop.

The way I see it, the hardware compat test can typically come down to this:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">---------------------------------------
| ATI | nVidia
---------------------------------------
Windows XP 32-bit | ??? |
---------------------------------------
Windows XP 64-bit | |
---------------------------------------
Windows Vista 32-bit | |
---------------------------------------
Windows Vista 64-bit | |
---------------------------------------

---------------------------------------
| ATI | nVidia
---------------------------------------
Intel Single Core | |
---------------------------------------
Intel Dual Core | |
---------------------------------------
AMD Single Core | |
---------------------------------------
AMD Dual Core | |
---------------------------------------</pre>[/QUOTE]For my case, it would seem that the Vista and ATI combo just wasn't checked. Of course, my tables are over-simplified, but a smaller team may be challenged to test across all of these configuration combinations.

[rune]

This is an OUTRIGHT LIE. I have a AMD dual core and tested is extensively with Vista, but I have an Nvidia card on both my systems. I NEVER said it was not tested in this configuration. Matter of fact in MULTIPLE threads, I state it WAS tested under Vista.

Rune


Originally posted by cabal23:
Here is another good one, Rune stated that they never tested the game with a AMD config. WHAT!!!! How on gods green earth do you not test a game with an AMD config? Not to mention a Vista + ATI config??? Do you know how many people would have been frothing at the mouth to help beta this game and all of this could have been resolved months ago? Amatuers is all I can say. $55 flushed down the drain. I have a right mind to call my credit card company and deny charges based on false advertising.

[atacms]

Count me also as ineligible to play. My specs:

Vista Ultimate
AMD X64 dual core 4000
Catalyst 7.7 drivers
ATI X1900 All in WOnder

Help please. Or a refund.

[Zebulon Pleasure Beast]

rune, was the game tested on Vista & Catalyst?

[rune]

I don't know I was in charge of scenarios and tested with my three rigs. 2 of which run Vista.

Anyway can someone test a driver for me with the ATI card? Make sure it isn't one of the brand spanking new cards.

Try this and let me know.

Link removed as this is for XP only

Rune

[ July 29, 2007, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: rune ]

[rune]

If someone is having problems with ati and xp and the game, and can test a different driver, post here and I will give you the link.


Originally posted by rune:
I don't know I was in charge of scenarios and tested with my three rigs. 2 of which run Vista.

Anyway can someone test a driver for me with the ATI card? Make sure it isn't one of the brand spanking new cards.

Try this and let me know.

Link remopved since it is for XP only.

Rune

[MikoyanPT]

Originally posted by rune:
If someone is having problems with ati and xp and the game, and can test a different driver, post here and I will give you the link.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rune:
I don't know I was in charge of scenarios and tested with my three rigs. 2 of which run Vista.

Anyway can someone test a driver for me with the ATI card? Make sure it isn't one of the brand spanking new cards.

Try this and let me know.

Link remopved since it is for XP only.

Rune

</font>[/QUOTE]I got a x1950pro and Vista.
I had already looked at this site has a guy with nvidia solved their troubles with their improved drivers, no ATI drivers for Vista unfortunately.
Aniway this is a new game and things take time to solve.
I and others were only a bit worried about this left click crash to desktop in ATI drivers was going unnoticed in battlefront.

It would help if these left click issue would be added in the known issues tread in top of page, people would became more patient.

Aniway, thank you rune for being working on a weekend. Sooner or later a fix in a new driver or a patch will come out.
Thanks battlefront for the great personalized support, no other company has it. :D

[rune]

I will continue to work on this, I have found all sorts of games ahving problems with the 7.7s and opengl. Hopefully I can come up with something if I find someone else has a work around. Will email Charles, if we are REALLY lucky maybe a work around...but if we do and they fix their drivers, it may break the game again. Will be back, doing more research.

Rune

[MikoyanPT]

Originally posted by rune:
I will continue to work on this, I have found all sorts of games ahving problems with the 7.7s and opengl. Hopefully I can come up with something if I find someone else has a work around. Will email Charles, if we are REALLY lucky maybe a work around...but if we do and they fix their drivers, it may break the game again. Will be back, doing more research.

Rune Thats the problem with "Windows Blody Vista TM" !
We will eventually be screwed by it again, and again.
Many thanks rune.

[rune]

OK, I need two volunteers for Vista testing.

1. One person to completely remove the vista ati driver, reboot, and use the default MS driver.

2. A guinea pig to test the beta 7.8 drivers.

Do I have any takers?

Rune

[Zebulon Pleasure Beast]

I'm installing 7.8 as I write this.

[rune]

OK beast, let me know.

Rune

[MikoyanPT]

OK, i will unistall ATI drivers and try.

[Zebulon Pleasure Beast]

OK, I am reporting improvement. With 7.8 the screen no longer flickers randomly. If I left-click a unit it will still freeze the game and possibly crash, but I found that using SHIFT to lasso units, even single units, will prevent this from happening. I was able to complete ATGM ambush scenario this way.

EDIT: Using WASD to move the camera caused the game to crash...this is a band-aid fix, I am sort of remotely able to play the game.

[Niskalaukaus]

Using 7.8 now and the problem is still there :(

[MikoyanPT]

Uninstalled the ATI drivers, i was surprised that the game launched, and the grafics were good and with good framerate, but left click crash is still there.
Looks like the card really needs a good driver that solves the issue, the current from ATI and microsoft default don´t do the trick.

[JasonC]

Rune - my experiences for what they are worth. I have 2 systems, an older desktop and a newer laptop.

The desktop is AMD Athlon 3200, 32 bit, running Windows XP with SP2, and using an ATI Radeon 9600 graphics card. It crashes hard during load (once) and while panning the camera (second time).

The laptop is Intel Core 2 Duo 2x2.0 giga Hz, 32 bit, running Vista Ultimate, with a GeForce 6800 video card. Runs smooth fast and stable, no issues.

I therefore believe ATI drivers are the problem. Vista seems to be fine with a GeForce card.

I hope this helps.

[rune]

Yeah, I have been running with Vista 64 and Vista 32 with Nvidia for months now. ATI has always been infamous for lack of opengl drivers [good ones anyway]. Will continue to dig in on this.

I sent the guys an email this morning, wehn I hear from them, I will update the status. Glad you got a partial, but not real solution. So, to play for now, use the 7.8 and don't use the wasd keys, and only group movr, don't click on a unit.

THIS IS NOT THE SOLUTION, but at least it may let ya play a scenario for now instead of just looking at it.

I will continue to work on this.

Thanks to Beast and Mikeyan for helping me troubleshoot this.

Rune

[rune]

I just thought of something. The Nvidia card have their own control panel, with opengl settings. Does ATI have the same thing? What are the opengl options?

Worse case, someone available in the US I can call on the phone to try a few things? It is on my dime, so I really don't want to call overseas.

Rune

[Niskalaukaus]

Catalyst Control Center has 2 Open GL settings which are "Triple buffering" and "Force 24-bit Z-buffer depth" both are unchecked by default.

[MikoyanPT]

Funny thing, here in Portugal we usually say that you guys are in the overseas, not us.
I think you guys are seeing things the wrong way, Columbus started from here and reach the overseas there, not the other way ! :D tongue.gif

[Zebulon Pleasure Beast]

Use Ventrilo instead of calling someone, rune? If you have a microphone that is...save buxxx.

[Zebulon Pleasure Beast]

Ok, I take back my statement about the game being playable, whenever I try to use commands other than move the game crashes. :(

[MikoyanPT]

Originally posted by Zebulon Pleasure Beast:
Ok, I take back my statement about the game being playable, whenever I try to use commands other than move the game crashes. :( Yes, i was betting on that, same thing hapens when i try using the keyboard commands on the 7.7 drivers.
The bug seems left click related, no matter were you click, units or terrain.

[rune]

OK, I don't think it is going to make a difference, but turn the two opengl options on. Let me know. You guys don't have anything for opengl extensions or anything of the type? Nvidia does and is all I can compare it to.

Rune

[Zebulon Pleasure Beast]

Made no noticeable difference at all.

[Steiner14]

If Radeon customers want things to become better, you need to write ATI an email, they will understand.
It's imporant to understand, that the game developers talk with the hardware over an interface, called API. And this API, be it OpenGL or DirectX, is supported by the drivers, is ATI claiming.
The truth is, their drivers are crap. For years!
So the best you can do is - while BFC tries to find a solution - write ATI what you think about their broken promises (support of OpenGL) and that your next card will be a GeForce. That's the only language they semm to understand. :mad:

[Steiner14]

double post

[MikoyanPT]

Funny thing, ATI has good performance but crashes, NVIDIA has bad performance (people around the forum are complaining).

The ones that are happy is people with old sistems with proven drivers.
Lets face it, the new drivers for good cards are jinxed, and one major reason for that is that "Windows Blody Vista TM" !

[massive1974]

Well actually , i got ati drivers, an old crappy system, and poor performance, so...

[Vipes34uk]

Originally posted by rune:
I just thought of something. The Nvidia card have their own control panel, with opengl settings. Does ATI have the same thing? What are the opengl options?

Worse case, someone available in the US I can call on the phone to try a few things? It is on my dime, so I really don't want to call overseas.

Rune Hi Rune,

I have Win XP SP2 and AMD DC 6000 + HD2900 XT card, I have the Opengl error using both 7.6 and 7.7 drivers. In the ATI Catalyst Control Panel, the only OpenGl elements are Triple Buffering on or off and Force 24bit Z buffer depth. With the 7.7's i've tried these on and off but to no avail, same crash happens time after time, additionally, I can't say that changing these options has an appreciable effect on the grafix. I don't appear to have a performance problem, only a delay in selecting a unit then a crash when trying to issue a waypoint. All other game functions appear to work ok. Have also tried all the other fixes on these forums.

PS, my machine is brand spanking new and with all updates installed and this is the second game installed on it.

[ACTOR]

Bump - because while I know it's being worked, not being to play is unpleasent!

Thanks,
Bill

[MikoyanPT]

Bump

To bring back to first page the left click crash issue with ATI drivers.

[Sadi]

I dont know if you people remember it but from the ATI 9xxx series on until recently there drivers had far better support and less crashes than nvidia, when vista came out ati was the first to have opengl support. There was a good bit of time when ATI had the best drivers out there.