Air Support! Is it worth it?

[IronChef4]

I've had good experiences: Destoying or disabling multiple ENEMY vehicles.
I've had bad experiences: "Friendly" 500 pound bomb landing amongst my advancing troops, resulting in 27 casulties!!!
One thing is certain. . . Fighter-bombers, even veteren ones, have a very non-consistant performance and cost lots of points!
What do you all think? Are they worth it? I'm also interested in hearing about any horror/lucky stories.

[The Commissar]

During my early days of CMBO, I got into an armor game versus an uber-tank playing fellow who selected a wide open map. Little cover, and most of my AFV's were relatively light ones.
Thankfully I bought a fighter bomber. Or so I thought.

Once the bloody thing showed up, I expected my opponent's massed tanks to suffer heavy damage. However, nothing could be further from the truth. The fighter bomber actually proceeded to attack my AFV's, which were all spread out amongst the few available patches of woods and cover. From that day on, I have never ever purchased a FB willingly in a QB. The possibility of dealing some damage is not worth pulling all your hair out from frustration and looking like Madmatt.

[Redwolf]

I did some tests to get an idea how BTS came up with the price for the Allied fighter-bomber.

I found, that for a "typical" combined arms mix, that means infantry, support, vehicles and tanks, in percentatges as proposed in the Quickbattle setting, the fighter-bomber will kill enemy units about the value value as its price.

It gets the majority of these points in lights AFVs. If the enemy unit mix has fewer AFVs, the FB is never worth it, neither infantry nor tanks suffer that much from it, except for the initial bombs. If the enemy came with lots of Wespes and halftracks, it rotally rocks.

The Axis FB is worthless, IMHO, because of all the .50cals on Allied AFVs.

[IronChef4]

I thought that the generic axis FB in the game had 20mm cannons, and was therefore better than its allied counterpart. . . AHA, here it is in the game manual, page 92:
There are two basic types of fighter-bombers in the game. One is equipped with rockets (enough for two passes), the other with a pair of 500-pound bombs, dropped simultaneously. Axis airplanes always carry bombs, while allied aircraft can be of either type. British aircraft are more likely to carry rockets. Additionally, every plane has .50 caliber machine guns (American) or 20mm cannon (British and German) with whicj to make strafing runs.

I would thik that 20mm cannon would be MUCH more effective against armored targets than .50 caliber machine guns. . .

[IronChef4]

Heheheh, I didn't know that the .50s on Allied AFVs could shoot at Axis FBs. . .

[Michael Emrys]

Although I think the FB algorithm could use some refining, basically its overall behavior is fairly accurate. You didn't usually want air support right in front of your troops (at least prior to the Ardennes). Air support was most useful and effective when allowed to range freely well behind enemy lines against logistic targets of opportunity. As such, it scarcely belongs in a CM battle except for specific circumstances.

Michael

[IronChef4]

Thats a good point.

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by IronChef4:
Heheheh, I didn't know that the .50s on Allied AFVs could shoot at Axis FBs. . .Only when they're unbuttoned. Don't expect to shoot down any planes, but if you have enough of them, they can be effective in preventing strafing runs.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:
Only when they're unbuttoned. Don't expect to shoot down any planes, but if you have enough of them, they can be effective in preventing strafing runs.I once had a green M3 HT shoot down an axis FB. :D

[Wolfpack]

I've had both good and bad experiences with FBs. I've only ever gotten them in PBEM QBs. The good being yesterday I decided to buy one for the heck of it, and on it's first pass it knocked out a PSW/3 and a PzIVJ. Already worth the money, then the second pass, it knocks out a StugIII and obliterates a building panicking the entire platoon that was thinking themselves safe within. It then stayed on station for 13 of the 25 rounds of the battle, causing much consternation among my opponents advancing troops. The bad would be when I was advancing 3 platoons across a smaller map, one on each flank and one in the center and along comes my FB to soften up the enemy and proceeds to drop his bombs square in the middle of my center platoon wiping it out to the last man...needless to say, my attack suffered. All in all, I like them, but rarely buy them, if I spend the points, I'd rather have something I can actually have a bit of control over, but sometimes they're worth it.

[HVAP]

Iron Chef the 20mm on its own is probably more destructive but on a Stuka there would be two compared to the 8 .50s on a P-47, remember in the pacific B-25s with 6+ .50s mounted in the nose were blowing holes in ships.

[illo]

In stuka there are no 20mm.

Ju-87 "Stuka" has only 2x7.9mm and up to 1000kg bomb. Dedicated tank killer Ju-87G has 2x37mm Flak guns with 12rounds of wolfram cored special ammunition each)Ju-87G was used in east front. Pilots used to shoot through T-34/76 and T-34/85 side turrets. Also there was Hs-129 with 50mm Pak or 75mm Pak. Me410B with 50mm AT gun was used in west afaik.

German ground attack plane at 1944 would most likely be Focke Wulf 190a6, a8 (4x20mm MG151/20 + 2x7.9mm mg17 or 2x13mm mg131, bomb 250 or 500kg) or f3, f8, g8(2xmg151/20,2x7.9mm or 13mm, 3x250kg bomb, 250/500kg+4x50kg bomb, AT-Rockets(f8), Cluster bombs (f8).

[ March 10, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by IronChef4:
Heheheh, I didn't know that the .50s on Allied AFVs could shoot at Axis FBs. . .Only when they're unbuttoned. Don't expect to shoot down any planes, but if you have enough of them, they can be effective in preventing strafing runs.</font>[/QUOTE]All flex MGs, even Axis ones shoot at planes, but not forward, box or coaxial MGs. In addition the Axis 20mm vehicles also shoot at planes, except the Lynx.

In practice I found that the average mix of allied vehicles had enough flex .50cals or other MGs, and people usually keep them open, to chase Axis fighterbombers away, at least after the bomb turn, sometimes even before that.

[Gen-x87H]

Friendly" 500 pound bomb landing amongst my advancing troops, resulting in 27 casulties!!!"

That is it? I once had a friendly FB drop 2 bombs right on an advancing column of mine wiping out 2.5 platoons and 2 tanks. Something like 90 casualties.

I never use these blasted things anymore!

Gen

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by illo:
....Also there was Hs-129 with 50mm Pak or 75mm Pak....

The standard cannon loadout for the Hs-129 was a 30mm cannon, and carried approximately 30 rounds of ammunition (later, I can provide the exact ammunition load if necessary). Units were initially provided tungsten-core cannon rounds, but when the metal became more scrace, a standard AP 30mm round was provided. Pilots were also instructed to approach the T-34 from the sides or rear and aim for the turret side/rear or engine deck. It must have been quite a ride- low to the ground at 240mph, and diving toward a tank trying to get a fatal hit with 1-5 rounds. From the accounts that I read about these pilots, they were really good at it too.

Starting in late 1944, the Germans researched arming a Hs-129 with a modified Pak40. Initial trials were attempted using a Ju88, and then the weapon was then mounted on the Hs129. Off the top of my head, I don't remember whether the package ever saw operational service (again, I can research it tonight if people want an answer- my source is at home- not in the office...). However, I think the Germans were not too impressed with the cannon. Ammunition was only limited to 12 rounds, and recoil threw off aiming.

[jshandorf]

To me FB just ruin the game... Either they are a waste of points because they don't show up or when they do.. do nothing usefull or they show up and wipe out the enemy, which to me takes all the fun out of it since that I what I wanted to do, and not have some AI controlled Jabodo it for me.

Jeff

[Croda]

I just read in Rendezvous with Destiny about an American Captain signalling to a recon aircraft that he needed air support and signalled in the direction of the Germans on the far bank (La Barquette Locks?).

When the air support arrived a few hours later, it promptly dropped it's bombs on the American company and was waved off of its strafing run at the last second by an Lt. with an orange flag.

Sounds to me like FBs are modeled fairly well afterall.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Croda:
I just read in Rendezvous with Destiny about an American Captain signalling to a recon aircraft that he needed air support and signalled in the direction of the Germans on the far bank (La Barquette Locks?).

When the air support arrived a few hours later, it promptly dropped it's bombs on the American company and was waved off of its strafing run at the last second by an Lt. with an orange flag.

Sounds to me like FBs are modeled fairly well afterall.True, but it looks like they forgot to model the all-important Orange Flags!

[ March 11, 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:
True, but it looks like they forgot to model the all-important Orange Flags!As well as orange smoke grenades.

Michael

[Warmaker]

Allied jabos. Seen enough of them.

German jabos. The Luftwaffe... never seen them:D

[ArmchairKIA]

I only use FB's on very large maps when I use them. I would prefer to spend the points on GV's or arty.

IMO the FB's sometimes spot too well (strafing infantry in forest or buildings that none of my units can see). It would be nice if the FB would attack the enemy arty or interdict offmap reinforcements (especially in ops).

Cheers!
-gabe-

[IronChef4]

*BUMP*

oops, how accidental of me. . .

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by ArmchairKIA:
It would be nice if the FB would attack the enemy arty or interdict offmap reinforcements (especially in ops).Hmm. There's an interesting idea. Wonder how the game engine would handle it...

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ArmchairKIA:
It would be nice if the FB would attack the enemy arty or interdict offmap reinforcements (especially in ops).Hmm. There's an interesting idea. Wonder how the game engine would handle it...</font>[/QUOTE]Since nobody else has come forward with any ideas, I will offer a few of my own. tongue.gif These are pretty simplistic, but then the whole air model is a peripheral matter for CM.

Regarding interdiction of reinforcements, how about something like this: For each FB committed off the map, the computer rolls a die, subtracts one, and then multiplies that number by two. The resultant is the number of turns that reinforcements are delayed. Thus, for instance, if a player commits two FBs off-map, his opponent's reinforcements could be delayed by 0, 4, 8, 12, 16, or 20, turns.

Something roughly similar could probably be applied to artillery, causing either a delay in acquiring targets, loss of salvos, or some combination of the two.

Michael

[ArmchairKIA]

For reinforcement interdiction - delay # of turns and/or cause casualties (would probably have to be just random units)

For artillery - probably stop FFE's and destroy some ammo capacity would be the most realistic.

The actual numbers (% reduction in reinforcements and ammo, etc) would have to be researched.

Cheers!
-gabe-

[Jarmo]

I'd guess the jabos have been deliberately overpriced. They have their place in some scenarios, but it'd suck to have them around in every other quick battle.

In one single player campaign I got a jabo first, it proceeded to kill my Panzer IV with a cleverly placed bomb, then flied away.

Then the AI got her plane, dropped the bombs in the middle of her massed infantry attack. Guess that was about a company out of action.

So in the end the planes kind of cancelled each others out by delivering roughly the same amount of friendly fire.

I'd never buy them and am very frightened if I get one in a scenario..

[MikeyD]

My thoughts on the airpower or no airpower question:

It all depends on if winning is your main goal, and not simply having fun. I still get a great kick out of the surprise of a passing plane shadow. I invariably halt my viewing and rewatch from other angles, chuckling as I do. I don't care if it has zero utility. it's still fun.

Along that line, here's a suggestion for CMBO. Imagine if at ramdom (every 6 or 7 games) a civilian sedan filled with drunken cossaks careens onto the board, drives about wildly then -- if they aren't all killed -- blasts off the map again.

No point, no points. Just a few moments of absurd fun. The purist grogs would have a coronary!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by ArmchairKIA:
For reinforcement interdiction - delay # of turns and/or cause casualties (would probably have to be just random units)I thought of casualties, but decided that this close to the front it would either be infantry already dispersed on foot or armored vehicles which would not be too vulnerable. Therefore, casualties would be too light and improbable to bother factoring in. Besides, just delaying reinforcements would tend to swing play balance so much already that anything additional would be overkill IMO. YMMV.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Depends. I've had everything from fighter bombers
finding hidden enemy armor over the next ridge and blasting it (love those smoke pillars!) to not showing up or, worse, blasting my own troops, happily not as severely as some here have related.

Air power can work great and when it does, exerts vast leverage, but it's uncertainty in both arrival and effectiveness makes it a real wild card. My limited reading on its battlefield effectiveness
tends to confirm this. I just finished reading an account of a battle in Italy in which an American infantry unit was hit both by the 3 x FW-190s and a bunch of Mustangs, fortunately without much damage. I tend to prefer artillery, for reliability, overall usefulness, and sustained combat power. That said, I have been brutalized by hostile aircraft in both QBs and tournament play.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by redwolf:
I did some tests to get an idea how BTS came up with the price for the Allied fighter-bomber.

I found, that for a "typical" combined arms mix, that means infantry, support, vehicles and tanks, in percentatges as proposed in the Quickbattle setting, the fighter-bomber will kill enemy units about the value value as its price.

Redwolf, I am wondering if you factored friendly fire into these calcs? Do you happen to remember?

[melb_will]

Not Cossacks, drunken generals, who would burst out of the cars, shout orders then disapere off the map as crew. Brilliant,

In regard to the air power question, I find that sometime it is worth buying just to keep your opponent off balance. If their is a possbility of air power your opponent will be forced to buy anti aircraft assets to counter you. These points will take away from the ones which could be spent on afv's or other. To me this is a good representation of history where a choice would have to be made between using road space for anti air defence or other.

Will

[Crank_GS]

I'm with MikeyD - I do the same thing when I see that ol' shadow racing across the map. As I almost always play US, it is usually my planes I see. I have had a few friendly fire incidents, but not nearly as many as seem to the norm based on this thread...

Also, I agree with Michael Emrys: there is really little room for FBs in the CM battlefield. They were far more likely to be found starting just beyond the FEBA, and extending far into the enemy's rear areas (that sounds bad, doesn't it?). Interdicting supplies, reinforcements and C&C elements as well as dropping leaflets insulting the recipients' mothers.

Modeling that "behind the enemy lines" type of effect would do a lot to swing play balance...

[Code13]

I love CAS, its just in most occaisions it is used in the wrong place, QB's, mostly smallish maps.

Having used CAS on very large maps they are supremely useful because they never get near my own troops, instead ranging about at the far end shooting up the enemy as they move forward to reineforce the front.

Sure sometimes there is a bit of "Blue on Blue" as they say but thats what happened.

If your troops are less than a kilometre away from the enemy dont blame the FB if he drops a stick of bombs too close to you, he is moving at 200+ miles an hour, less than 200' up and can only see little dudes shooting at each other, you are the ones that blurred the front line, not him.

For evidence at how useful CAS is play a battle on a big map, from the on disk missions Approach to Sevastapol is spot on.