German grammar grogs?

[Kugel]

First of all, what ever happened to the old forum, and why can't I login with my previous username? Was I not liked? Anyway, I'm trying to learn when to properly use sein or haben when constructing the present perfect and pluperfect sentences. I spent a lot of time with grammar manuals, and below are the rules I was able to collect from them.

1. Is the verb expressing something that has happened to people outside of their control rather than something that people have done? If the verb is outside of their control, use sein. Think Heidegger's Dasein who is being thrown into the world.

n.b. I don't know anything about the philosophy of Heidegger. I just think it's sort of odd/neat that German grammar would actually care about whether or not the verb is is being done by the individual's control or by external forces.

2. Verbs with no motion. Go on no further and use haben

3. If the verb has motion, then check for direct object(accusative object). If there is a direct object, then use haben. If there is no direct object, use sein. Prepositional objects don't count.

4. Remember that the verbs werden(to become), sein, geschehen and blieben will always use sein.

These are the rules that I've gleaned from the grammar manuals. Now, I'm confused with rules 1 and 2. Should rule 1 always come first? Consider the verb geboren. If rule 2 came first, then one could mistakenly use haben because geboren doesn't involve motion. Does this mean that one should always ask this question first: who is controlling the verb, outside external forces or the person/it?

Where should I include the "all-encompassing rule" about intransitive verbs taking sein, and transitive verbs taking haben?

How many exceptions should be noted? Take losgeworden.

Endlich bin ich ihn losgeworden.

This breaks the rule about direct objects taking haben. Should losgeworden be thrown in the pile of verbs that always take sein as the auxiliary verb?


Should I include the rule about haben being allowed to take intransitive verbs when the activity is expressed with the focus being on the activity, not to where the activity is taking you?

Ich bin heute geschwommen.
Ich habe heute geschwommen. (I don't care where you were swimming to. I just care that you had a swim today.

But this breaks the rule where not having a direct object means taking sein as the auxiliary.

How would you organize the rules?

Here is what I've written so far

http://labs.ikindalikelanguages.com/lesson.php?id=50

Before I write lesson 2 I figured I should wait for some input from experienced learners/natives of German.

[Pandur]

hi there

i have no idea if you still need this but i gona tell you the questions you asked here are quiet haard to understand for an "average" german languaged person. think of it as the average english speaker knowing all the odds and end about the english grammer in a way he can "explain" it. means to be able to use information is not the same grade of knowlage then to be able to teach it. since i see you got some sort of german course running i guess you know what i mean as you need to teach yourself. you see, it took quiet a bit to get anyone to post here, thats some prove to it :)

now it gets even harder as you basicaly explain it in english words and use only single german words as examples.

anyways i did look up youre link and clicked through most of the anwsers and there was nothing wrong.
maybe the "es hat gesagt" or "es hat es gesagt" example is nessesary to get the examples for the 3rd article "es" but you will almost never need it, and if you ever need it you would figure it out becouse by then you can speak german rather well :D

or i cant think of an easy real world example.

whatever, i cant help you lineing out the rules but if you are good enough with this stuff you may be able to write up some sentences to compare, and i tell you wich one is right and wich wrong. maybe this can help you understand the rules in a indirect way, wich could possible be translated into direct rules.

good luck

[Kugel]

hi there

i have no idea if you still need this but i gona tell you the questions you asked here are quiet haard to understand for an "average" german languaged person. think of it as the average english speaker knowing all the odds and end about the english grammer in a way he can "explain" it. means to be able to use information is not the same grade of knowlage then to be able to teach it. since i see you got some sort of german course running i guess you know what i mean as you need to teach yourself. you see, it took quiet a bit to get anyone to post here, thats some prove to it :)

now it gets even harder as you basicaly explain it in english words and use only single german words as examples.

anyways i did look up youre link and clicked through most of the anwsers and there was nothing wrong.
maybe the "es hat gesagt" or "es hat es gesagt" example is nessesary to get the examples for the 3rd article "es" but you will almost never need it, and if you ever need it you would figure it out becouse by then you can speak german rather well :D

or i cant think of an easy real world example.

whatever, i cant help you lineing out the rules but if you are good enough with this stuff you may be able to write up some sentences to compare, and i tell you wich one is right and wich wrong. maybe this can help you understand the rules in a indirect way, wich could possible be translated into direct rules.

good luck

Cool, thanks. I'm about to post a "lesson" that goes on to the sein being used as the auxiliary.