New Features

[Big Al]

Getting too complex.

I feel the units are fine the way they are. Arty and AA shouldnt be in the game for the scale presented.

DEFENSIVE UNITS: The Germans actually lowered their # of batallions in a division from 3 to 2 and gave them more defensive weapons. You see this simulated in some games by much lower attack and slightly higher defense at a lower manpower cost. They had more tank destroyers than tanks which were cheaper and less mobile but for defensive positions it was great.

Defensive unit sucks on attack and are a little cheaper to buy. the AT unit is a good example to use. It only takes AT upgrades.

Corp Soft Attack/Soft Defense/Hard Attack/Hard Defense 1/1/1/1 AP's 3
Anti Tank SA/SD/HA/HD 0/1/0/1 AP's 2 and a little cheaper (as defensive unit)
The problem here is the AI will replace these with inf corp.

HERE is another even easier solution... dont do anything its already in the game

late in the war players have high tech. A fully loaded tech 4 corp has inf weapons, at guns, and motorization.... so simply build a corp and lets say give it tech 2 inf weapons and teach 4 AT guns and no motorization, voila a defensive unit. It has high AT strength, cant attack as well, defends vs tanks well, is less mobile, and costs less too.

AL IDEA:
Another idea is making artillery 0 AP fortifications on the coast if you wanted to use that. On this scale it doesnt work.

ATTACHMENTS OF BRIGADES AT AA TANKS:
Trying to immitate HoI2 where you can pop in attachments just puts the game on 1 higher level of complexity. Ok I do it so he does it. More mouse clicks please.

RUSSIAN ARTY:
I could be wrong here but if I remember the Russians really didnt have super artillery. They had poor logisitics and simply piled all their ammo in one spot for an attack. They had the guns just never the ammo. So they took from other places to make this huge arty barrage in certain battles. The Germans actually used more shells on the Russian front than the Russians and had better arty. Now americans, sheesh, they used 40x more ammo than germany for their artillery. They were artillery happy. They would bomb a place, send in the soldiers (they would get killed), call a retreat, BOMB THE SUPER CRAP out of the same position (germans learned to retreat before that happened), then the soldiers went in. USA way. when you combine it all together, leave arty the same. The factors balance out.

Now I know I always look like a poo-pooer of ideas. I just try and keep the game for what makes it great, simplicity combined with great abstraction and the ability to manipulate.

Now the new ideas I like it is a good improvement to the system without complicating it.

The informational addons great, they make the game move faster.

Strat bombers attacking convoys: great simple add on

Amphib attack right from seas: great simple add on. Now making islands is easier and protecting your amphibs more important. It solves the problem of invading small islands without a port. Also helps AI.

Raiders: great improvement without added time to the game.

Keep up the good work....

[The K Man]

I like your ideas Teutonkopf. I always thought the AA, ART, etc. would work better attached to the units. The battalians idea would work well (IMO.) Again similar to the carrier concept. That is basicly 2 units, that can do two separate operations...(if it wants.)

[arado234]

LOTS of great ideas but in the end(like Big Al)pointed out,how complex do we want the game to be and as mentioned before we also have to think about the A.I. Im assuming the more you add the harder it is for the A.I. to be programmed?

[teutonkopf]

Ok, the notion of keeping it simple makes sense. There is a way to keep it simple, but make it more realistic and give more options to the player. Here is the idea:
Only have 4 types of land units:
Army
Corps
Paratroops
Marines

Paratroops and Marines are your special forces. Marines need to replace the current over generalized amphibious free-for-all nonsense. A tank corps making an amphibious landing? THAT NEVER HAPPENED. That never will happen. An Army making and amphibious assault? Please, give me a break. You cannot be serious. Now, back to reality: Marines are no bigger than corps sized. Armies and panzer corps can only land on beach heads already secured by marines.

Paratroops are the same, except they need to also have air mobile capability. They should be able to airlift into friendly and unoccupied areas without having to take jump casualties. They should also be able to suffer damage enroute when they parachute or airlift. Enemy fighters can make an attack on them and friendly fighters can fly an escort mission. There is no way fallschirmjagers are going to land in Britain without Air Supremacy. Get real.

Now, here is the very interesting part. Armies and Corps have all the attributes:
Infantry
Engineers
AT
Tanks
AA
Arty
Motorization
You adjust the values how you want to. Give it alot of tank points and there is your panzer army. Yes, you can create a panzer army if you have the cash. Give it alot of Arty and there is your artillery army if thats what you want. (Oh, and by the way, Artillery does not have a range beyond neighboring hexes. Are you for real? The Paris Gun was never built, much less an artillery battalion of them.) This simulates mixing, adding, subtracting and all the funky jazz that the major and minor powers did and that you could do as supreme commander. Pretty cool, huh? I like it!

So this would apply to paratroops and marines, but they would have less options and limited values on some options:
Paratroops:
Infantry weapons
Engineers (make the whole unit airborne engineers if you have that cash. Its your money!)
Limited AT
Limited Arty
Limited AA
NO Tanks

Marines:
Infantry weapons
Engineers
AT
Arty
AA
Limited Tanks

v/r,
tk

[crispy131313]

I am not one of the constant contributors here, however I have followed the forum every day for months, and the notion of removing Tanks (as a stand alone unit) from the game is really unappealing. Panzer Groups to my knowledge were more than just a sprinkling amongst an army, and were major aspects of the war. I would like to see these groups as standalone targets to attack (especially when defending as the soviets).

I do agree with elminating some of the specialty units (Anti Tank, Anti Air) but limiting the game to only 4 units seems a little dull. Rather than changing the major mechanics of how corps sizes and armies are mobilized and with which amount and levels of weaponry the receive I would much more enjoy a more detailed account of the second world war. Brazil for example while not a significant contributor to the war did mobilze an army and sent it to Eurpoe to fight the Italians, the REF (I belive), pilots and navy fought for the allies. While their troops did not mass large numbers I would like to see countries such as Brazil become involved (ex. Strength 1 Corps, Strength 1 Cruiser, Strength 1 Fighters) join the war and leave the what ifs in our hands. (If we could decide to invest resources to build up a Southern American Country like Brazil to the point they could make an impact on a Global scale.)

The many what ifs is what excites me the most about the second world war. What if after abandoning Sealion the Germans decided they had enough time to conquer Switzerland? What If the Germans did not declare war on the Soviets until much later? Would they have gained enough ground to gain the support of more beligerents? What if Vichy France was never an option and the French nations continued to battle?

I can not speak for everyone, and I am certainly not speaking for the "hardcore" but rather than playing the same game over and over again, the replay value of this upcomign release is what I am really crossing my fingers for, not less units + more complications. Basically I'm just tossing my 2 cents out there hoping that I will never play the same game twice, and that there will be atleast an option for the timeline and or minor counrtries to be able to be altered by chance, or consequence.

[xwormwood]

Originally Posted by Big Al

Getting too complex.

Amphib attack right from seas: great simple add on. Now making islands is easier and protecting your amphibs more important. It solves the problem of invading small islands without a port. Also helps AI.
....

I hope that only units with amphib abiltity / tech are able to invade this way.

Regular units, if allowed as well, would need the abiltity to leave an island which has no harbor tile attached.

Btw.: your comments hit the point, i absolutly agree with you.

[crispy131313]

I would also like to see an advanced Diplomacy model, where as even once a country is at war (100%) they can still be affected by diplomacy. For example Hungary could continue to be a diplomatic target of the Allies even after they are at War and if the Allies can successfully bring them back down to 0% they would surrender/accept a peace treaty, or possibly even switch sides (All units outside of their country would obviously surrender to the Germans). This type of stuff is real, and once again opens door to many more what ifs.

[Bill101]

Originally Posted by crispy131313

...rather than playing the same game over and over again, the replay value of this upcomign release is what I am really crossing my fingers for, not less units + more complications.

From my own experience playtesting this game, I certainly don't think that you're going to find yourself refighting the same game over and over. Far from it in fact, because there are countless strategies to try out, plus what with having two main theatres it means that even if you do the same thing twice in one theatre, you and/or your opponent could be doing something totally different in the other.

This is of course making our playtesting not only more interesting but also more demanding, and of course, fun!

[Snowstorm]

Sounds good Bill 101.
Since the emphasis on this game is "global", I would hope that Hubert and team are concentrating on the global and mapping part of it, and not trying to make too many changes to the units themselves. My feeling is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Being a big historical WWII in Europe fan, I would love to see simply a much bigger, blown-up maps and features of Euope and Asia, and even the U.S. and the rest of America. This would also help create more strategies if, say, the distance between Moscow and Leningrad were 20 hexes instead of 10. Obviously, one might need a better strategy protecting their "flanks" during an assault in this regard, then when the distance was much smaller in the previous games.

[arado234]

Teutonkopf what you say about invading is right(the fact that France can even launch a major amphib. invasion is wrong and same with the Brits. early in the war) but because the game was simplified for easier playing(im sure to program the A.I.)then these units have to be able to invade.What might be alot simpler is just limit the amount of units that can land per turn.If you choose to send a Tank army to invade that would use up say half of all available invasion craft,etc etc.I like your way better but im just thinking about keeping it simple to program and play.I dont think that France should have any capability or the Brits early on unless they invest in it.